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re: Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?
Posted on 2/23/15 at 10:56 pm to rbWarEagle
Posted on 2/23/15 at 10:56 pm to rbWarEagle
Of those, individuals cannot choose their DNA (which determines one's choices) but they can, and do, react differently to the same socio-eco-political structure...thus semi-determinism?
1
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:00 pm to SwaggerCopter
quote:
God can control the picture without taking away our free will. It all depends on how you define, "controlling the picture."
I suppose, but that goes in to a realm of supernaturalism that I can't really argue my point from, you know what I mean?
quote:
Reality TV stars make their own choices (or determinism does), but the producers can definitely set the general direction of the show by pulling the right strings.
Then the system is rigged. They only have as much free will as the producers allow. Personally, I find that to be the opposite of free.
quote:
For the record, the free will vs. pre-destination is a fascinating argument among theologians. Philosopers Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo have HUGE disagreements on how to settle it. If you are really interested in learning how those two can go together, there is a talk by a pretty respected theologian/philosophy professor at Boston College I can post that would be worth your time.
Sure, sounds interesting.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:01 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:Really? So there are repeatable, controlled, falsifiable, peer-reviewed experiments being done so we can see free will, or lack there of, in action?
There are scientific studies
Free will is a philosophical term which science can't prove or disprove. Materialist are so desperate to confine all knowledge as scientific knowledge that they'll say some really dumb things.
Like..."There is no free will."
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:03 pm to rbWarEagle
I haven't listened to this in a while, but I'm pretty sure this is the one I was thinking about. I listened to the beginning to make sure, and it seems like the one.
LINK
LINK
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:04 pm to beejon
quote:
Of those, individuals cannot choose their DNA (which determines one's choices) but they can, and do, react differently to the same socio-eco-political structure...thus semi-determinism?
Their DNA largely determines their reactions, though.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:06 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Their DNA largely determines their reactions, though.
If that's true, no one should be convicted of crimes, their actions were beyond their control.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:08 pm to JazzyJeff
quote:
Really? So there are repeatable, controlled, falsifiable, peer-reviewed experiments being done so we can see free will, or lack there of, in action?
There are experiments (of the characteristics you have described) which shed light on specifics of the basis of free will, allowing those of us who read them to draw conclusions. For instance, the Libet study I mentioned earlier has to do with a neurological event called readiness potentials. In the study, he records the time of conscious intention to act in relation to the cerebral initiation (readiness potential). He found that there is unconscious activity in the brain seconds before the supposed "voluntary" act took place by the participant.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:10 pm to beejon
quote:
If that's true, no one should be convicted of crimes, their actions were beyond their control.
Their actions were beyond their ultimate control, yes, but their danger to society still necessitates being put away (so as not to harm themselves or anyone else). The idea of no free will definitely has huge implications for our social justice system, which is why many tend to stay away from the discussion (I'd bet).
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:12 pm to rbWarEagle
I think it's cute to not believe in free will, but I don't think you really don't. 
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:13 pm to SwaggerCopter
quote:
I think it's cute to not believe in free will, but I don't think you really don't.
You think wrong, my friend.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:14 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Their actions were beyond their ultimate control, yes, but their danger to society still necessitates being put away (so as not to harm themselves or anyone else). The idea of no free will definitely has huge implications for our social justice system, which is why many tend to stay away from the discussion (I'd bet).
There then is no such thing as crime, guilt, fault, personal responsibility, choice, ect?
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:15 pm to beejon
quote:
There then is no such thing as crime, guilt, fault, personal responsibility, choice, ect?
Crime, yes. Guilt, yes. Fault, (in the ultimate sense) no. Personal responsibility, no. Choice, yes.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:18 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Crime, yes. Guilt, yes. Fault, (in the ultimate sense) no. Personal responsibility, no. Choice, yes.
Let's take the last one...choice. Wouldn't choice be an indicator of free will? How could a person have a choice if their DNA determined their choices?
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:18 pm to rbWarEagle
Why do you feel a sense of accomplishment, when you do something? It wasn't you or God, so who cares?
If I didn't believe in free will, I would kill myself. Dead serious. I wouldn't see a point to life. Just a cog in the system.
If I didn't believe in free will, I would kill myself. Dead serious. I wouldn't see a point to life. Just a cog in the system.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:20 pm to beejon
quote:
How could a person have a choice if their DNA determined their choices?
Choice is a decision made by a mental process. What determines that mental process does not change the fact that a choice is being made.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:21 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Choice is a decision made by a mental process. What determines that mental process does not change the fact that a choice is being made.
Didn't DNA determine their mental process?
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:24 pm to SwaggerCopter
quote:
Why do you feel a sense of accomplishment, when you do something? It wasn't you or God, so who cares?
This is where things get a little tricky for some people. I still feel good about things that I do, because it is my impulse to do so. I still feel bad about things I screw up, too.
quote:
If I didn't believe in free will, I would kill myself. Dead serious. I wouldn't see a point to life. Just a cog in the system.
I don't believe that you would, but my friend (who also happens to be a Christian like yourself) says the same thing. Free will is a powerful illusion. Roy Baumeister holds the belief that society should maintain this illusion because people would start behaving badly if they didn't (see his study showing that cheating behavior increases in those prompted to believe free will doesn't exist). I don't think the outlook is so bleak, though, if thoroughly thought through. In fact, I think I see people in a much more empathetic fashion now.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:26 pm to beejon
quote:
Didn't DNA determine their mental process?
Yes, among other things. Reread our conversation thus far, I have a feeling you are missing something.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:28 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Yes, among other things. Reread our conversation thus far, I have a feeling you are missing something.
I guess I am. It's late...I'm sleepy. Will check out the thread tomorrow.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 11:30 pm to beejon
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