- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:47 pm to catholictigerfan
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:47 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
but you talk as we don't have free will, but we don't have enough evidence to prove other wise.
Yet. The evidence is in favor of my argument, though.
quote:
Ok sure the brain fills in the gap, but this is more than just the brain filling in blind spots in our vision. But my experience shows me that I have free will. Just like I experience myself touching things, it is hot, or cold. My experience shows me one thing, and you are saying it isn't really that way.
That is the nature of an illusion.
quote:
It doesn't give us the illusion that we see something when we really don't see something.
That is precisely what it does. It fills in the information based on the surrounding context.
quote:
My main problem with your argument, is that you are taking a few exceptions to freedom and applying it to the whole. I say we have free will but not every action is free. You are taking a few empirically verified uncontrolled actions and applying it to every action. That is a logically fallacy.
At worst it is an extrapolation based on verifiable and repeatable evidence.
quote:
Another smaller problem, but it is still there. If no-one has free will how can we hold anyone responsible for their actions? If someone goes on a shooting rampage and kills 10 people, we don't say he had no control over his actions so we shouldn't punish him. No we probably put him in the chair, unless we figure out he is mentally unstable.
Without free will there is no justification for punishment, because we are all just reactionary animals who act out of our instincts. There is no need for criminal law, because really no-one commits crime, because they aren't free to do it.
Right, because the basis of our justice system relies upon the presupposition of free will. That doesn't mean its true. Criminals who intend to harm others should still be kept away from the public, but our justice system would certainly change. The notion of retributive justice becomes absurd. They still commit the crime, but the notion that they "could have done differently" goes out the window.
0
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:48 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
I already said that non-determinism allows free will to exist
dude. You still haven't explained HOW free will would exist in such a universe. quote:
Free will cannot exist in a deterministic universe. If you want to argue about that, I'm at a loss.
I don't want to argue that because I believe it to be true. Daniel Dennett, however, would disagree with both of us. You should read more on this topic and then get back to me.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 2:53 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
You still haven't explained HOW free will would exist in such a universe.
I don't understand what you're not grasping.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 2:53 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
rbWarEagle
I actually had to look them up, been reading a Karl Popper book The Open Universe: An Argument for Indeterminisms, most of the day now
, its a good question and lots of interesting arguments for and against. I'm sure it would have been more difficult to read when I was in college and still developing my sense of who I was, now its just good reading and makes you go "hmmm" I guess i'm a dichotomy, I hold dear my common sense and celebrate my free will but always wonder "what if"
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:05 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
I don't understand what you're not grasping.
Either you are fricking with me or I'm stroking out.
I understand that you think randomness in an indeterministic universe leaves room for free will. I would like you to describe how free will would work in such a universe, considering it's ultimately random properties. If everything is random on an atomic level, how could free will possibly exist?
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:05 pm to Tommy Patel
quote:
I guess i'm a dichotomy, I hold dear my common sense and celebrate my free will but always wonder "what if"
That's a good start, I suppose.Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:12 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
I understand that you think randomness in an indeterministic universe leaves room for free will.
This is all I have asserted.
quote:
I would like you to describe how free will would work in such a universe, considering its ultimately random properties. If everything is random on an atomic level, how could free will possibly exist?
It's the only way free will can exist. If everything is deterministic, there's no free will. Free will means that I as a person can choose between alternatives A & B. In a deterministic universe, that choice has already been made.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:19 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
t's the only way free will can exist. If everything is deterministic, there's no free will.
I agree with you, though certain academics/scientists would disagree. Again, see Daniel Dennett (Elbow Room, for example).
quote:
Free will means that I as a person can choose between alternatives A & B. In a deterministic universe, that choice has already been made.
In an indeterministic universe, events happen through random probability, even at the level of the brain. Therefore, the decision being made is made on the basis of said random probability. Free will, to me, doesn't make sense in that paradigm either.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:44 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
I agree with you, though certain academics/scientists would disagree. Again, see Daniel Dennett (Elbow Room, for example).
why can't there be a mix?
Think of it this way. A train has a determined end but those in the train are indetermined for their actions.
The earth has a determined end, but a single entity aka a human doesn't have a determined end. It is possible for higher beings, such as humans to have a indeterminate end and lower beings or objects, such as inanimate objects to have fixed ends.
The universe for the most part is deterministic, so the laws in place have lead to this world to exist. But those who have higher intellects aren't bound by a certain end.
This post was edited on 2/24/15 at 3:49 pm
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:46 pm to rbWarEagle
I said we have free will for all intents and purposes . Even if every event is a consequence of all previous events, it is so complex that we could never predict what will happen and we feel like we have free will so what you call it really isn't important
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:57 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
The universe for the most part is deterministic, so the laws in place have lead to this world to exist. But those who have higher intellects aren't bound by a certain end.
It has nothing to do with intellect. It has everything to do with genetics, environment, upbringing, and countless other influential variables that shape our conscious experience.
quote:
The earth has a determined end, but a single entity aka a human doesn't have a determined end. It is possible for higher beings, such as humans to have a indeterminate end and lower beings or objects, such as inanimate objects to have fixed ends.
That is called indeterminism. I don't happen to believe that, but your religious beliefs lead you to believe that (I assume).
Posted on 2/24/15 at 4:00 pm to Grim
quote:
Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?
I said we have free will for all intents and purposes . Even if every event is a consequence of all previous events, it is so complex that we could never predict what will happen and we feel like we have free will so what you call it really isn't important
But it is important for other reasons. The feeling of hatred of another fizzles away with a disbelief in free will. Our social justice system seems obsolete and in need of a massive overhaul when you realize that free will doesn't exist. People who constantly blame themselves for their shitty life can feel some relief under my view. I could go on. I think there is something to be gained for recognizing it as an illusion.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 4:02 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?
Posted on 2/24/15 at 4:58 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
It has nothing to do with intellect. It has everything to do with genetics, environment, upbringing, and countless other influential variables that shape our conscious experience.
intellect is a part of our decisions making. Yes genetics, environment, upbringing have an impact, but our intellect can help us reason what actions are the best.
But them simple point I was trying to make, some things work involuntarily, inanimate objects and most animals, and there are some things that have at-least some form of voluntary actions.
Again the train analogy. A train is moving towards an end, that end is predetermined but those in the train are free to choose what to do, while their destination is set.
There are some things that are determined for us, where we are born, what our upbringing, gender, hair color, etc. but there are other things that are not determined, what food we eat, when we wake up, who we date, etc. While many of the decisions we make come up out of natural instincts we aren't bound by those things. That is why people fast, or why people will deprive themselves of sleep, or other natural remedies. Their intellect believes it is beneficial for them to give that hitting up.
but you will find most Christian theologians, and philosophers, argue for free will from the intellect or from reason. Animals who by argument don't have intellects, (some may have intellects it's not impossible) don't have a choice in their acting. Those who do have intellects do have choices in their acting, but only when free from certain constraints. Someone who is being treated with their life doesn't really have a choice, unless they aren't afraid of death. But I have a choice to do many things in life. Free will is obviously present in the human experience.
quote:
That is called indeterminism.
I rather use teleology that is what the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas, and others have used. Pretty much things have purposes and those purposes determine who things should act. For example the final cause of my eye is to help me see.
Now don't get this confused with the ID theory, I don't subscribe to that, mainly because they also reject evolution. while there is an intelligence behind the universe, which would make it deterministic, evolution and the like are true.
But why I'm a determinist, and why I agrgue for free will, is mainly based on teleology or final causality. Everything is created for a purpose, and the way it acts is determined by that purpose. Because humans have an intellect, reason, and will, humans can act contrary to that end. While this seems to set up a contradiction it doesn't. Things can work against their purpose, a chair can be used as a door stop.
To put it simply intellect and reason are essential in describing free will. The only way we can work against instincts if we have reason to show us why those instincts are good or not good for us.
Man doesn't have an instinct to fast, but plenty of people do it.
Man doesn't have an instinct to not produce offspring, but many people in religious orders and peisthood choose not to do it. Again yes religion plays an impact in that, but religion doesn't predetermine you to do this. Your reason guides you to this.
If are actions are predetermined I wouldn't think we would work against our natural instincts.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 9:02 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
intellect is a part of our decisions making. Yes genetics, environment, upbringing have an impact, but our intellect can help us reason what actions are the best.
There are a lot of issues here, but I'm going to try and unpack some of them. Your intellect is constrained by your DNA, for one. Some people have better reasoning powers than others. Consider Stephen Hawking vs. Kim Peek. Does Stephen Hawking has more "free will" than Kim Peek?
quote:
Again the train analogy. A train is moving towards an end, that end is predetermined but those in the train are free to choose what to do, while their destination is set.
Again, this is a form of indeterminism.
quote:
There are some things that are determined for us, where we are born, what our upbringing, gender, hair color, etc. but there are other things that are not determined, what food we eat, when we wake up, who we date, etc.
But those things are determined by our subconscious mental processes by electrochemical processes that you have no control over. For instance, when you wake up in the morning and crave a glass of water... is it because you love the delicious taste or is it because your body is dehydrated and your brain is motivating you to drink it?
quote:
But I have a choice to do many things in life. Free will is obviously present in the human experience.
Choice doesn't matter, choice exists regardless of whether or not free will exists. This absence of free will happens at a deeper level than choice. There is a neural process that underlies every thought you have (which is spurred by the electrochemical events, well below your level of conscious awareness) in response to your environment.
quote:
Man doesn't have an instinct to fast, but plenty of people do it.
No, but the universe is such that man fasts.
quote:
Your reason guides you to this.
Your reason is brought about but subconscious neural processes that you do not control.
*Edit: Sorry for any grammatical errors, I'm listening to someone speak to me on the phone.
This post was edited on 2/24/15 at 9:04 pm
Page 8 of 8
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News