re: Snowden and Putin really throwing it down on us now.

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The best analogy I can think of for this would be that I can make fun of my brother but if you make fun of him we are going to fight. I don't believe it is OK to embarrass the United States with one of our enemies. This serves no purpose other thn to further Russian policy and undermine the position of the United States on the world stage. I realize this one event will not accomplish any such thing but it does aid that cause. Snowden has already let us know of the wrongs the NSA has done so what is the point of helping Russia rub it in? Does his action help or hurt the United States?

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I see what you are trying to say, and agree to a certain (but very small) extent. This is how I see the whole thing...

The problem with being wrong on items such as this is that there is no grey area. These things were brought to light, and NOTHING has been done about them. There is a culture in circles of people that deal with classified information at every level all the way up to the NSA, obviously (and probably higher), of distancing yourself from any incident or personal belief regarding classified information. It is cowardice, and in many occasions, people are scared to report it correctly.

What happened with Snowden is that he was one of those people who actually had the guts to raise this flag. The people he worked around and under, to include the IG that he tried to run the flag through, were not on board with being involved in a classified incident of this magnitude. Reason? Because classified incidents can be CAREER KILLERS, and nobody wants to be recognized in association with an incident, or people willing to get involved with this kind of information.

Being wrong is a black and white thing, no matter how you go about it. Even if you are just half-wrong, so to speak, you are still wrong in some shape or fashion.

The United States Government is WRONG for doing this, no matter how you slice it. The fact that our leaders are using it as propaganda instead of changing the process that is without a doubt illegal and unconstitutional tells me all I need to know about their gall. Snowden is a better leader than all of those sorry cowards.

The other poster who said "maybe we NEED to be embarrassed" on a global scale is correct. When someone raises a flag like this that affects everyone in the nation, is persecuted for it, AND used thereafter for the gain of the government instead of the people, other things obviously need to happen to make the wrong a right.

I don't think it will be turned around during this presidency, but there are candidates on both sides that I feel would take the right side of this issue and ACTUALLY start to promote positive change on this matter of constitutional protecting. The mockery he is making of our government on a global level is not something he made up, more something he is communicating expeditiously. If we humiliate our leaders enough, they should realize that we need to reverse our direction and take the steps that our governmental structure was designed to take.

The next president, and his constituents, will have to do a LOT of rebuilding on the image that Mr. Obama has destroyed due to his lack of respect for the power of the American people, and his disregard for the inner workings of the House and Senate as a counterbalance to his office.

Snowden did not create this problem, he revealed it. He turned on the light, and the cockroaches spread. In this great big analogy, the next people that live in this house need to clean up the place, because the government leaders before them trashed the frick out of it.

ETA: LULZ @ those who think he is hiding behind "geopolitical foes" rather than using them as an avenue to force change where the leaders, who are elected to enforce this very kind of change, are not doing their fricking job by any stretch of the imagination.

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what are those other avenues that don't end with him being thrown in jail?

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You're missing my point. If he was truly the "hero" that his comrades claim him to be he would have revealed what he knew about NSA domestic spying and then turned himself in to face the consequences.

I hope the Snowden fanboys have been doing their stretching. There will be a lot of contortion going on with defending this guy from here on out.

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I can't speak for him, but I'm not young and I do have children. When I was 25, I could probably have been rightfully said to be "America, frick yeah!!".

Now? Not so much. I'm very impressed by what we COULD be but not terriby impressed by what we are and are becoming.

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Do you really want our country to crumble? Do you want to risk the possibility of not being able to feed your children and standing in bread lines as your wife starves at home? I don't think many here realize how painful an externally initiated change would be. The best case scenario is that we correct this ourselves, without violence. Idealism doesn't put food on the table or let you go bass fishing in your boat on the weekends. Sometimes things that sound good in theory are actually VERY painful to endure. I admire the founding fathers more thn any other group that has ever existed but I also realize what they had to endure. People now say they are willing to pay that price while sitting in a heated and air conditioned home and watching television but I don't think they really understand what that price will be.

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If he was truly the "hero" that his comrades claim him to be he would have revealed what he knew about NSA domestic spying and then turned himself in to face the consequences.

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so are you a person that would turn yourself in?

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so are you a person that would turn yourself in?

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Nice attempt to poison the well.

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Do you really want our country to crumble?

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Of course not in the abstract. It would suck for many individuals.

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Do you want to risk the possibility of not being able to feed your children and standing in bread lines as your wife starves at home? I don't think many here realize how painful an externally initiated change would be

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Well, I suspect even an internally initiated change would suck arse because it damned sure isn't going to happen because a bunch of dudes in DC cause it. If we ever get off this train to hell, it will be at the point of a gun or due to disintegration from within. BOTH would suck of course.

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Idealism doesn't put food on the table or let you go bass fishing in your boat on the weekends. Sometimes things that sound good in theory are actually VERY painful to endure.

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What you are describing is pretty much why all overreaching governments in history have been able to do so for as long as they did. You do realize that, correct? I'm not saying I don't understand the self-preservation mindset. I'm merely pointing out that overreaching governments absolutely RELY upon that reality in their citizens. They couldn't do what they do otherwise.

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False. If he had done that, he would have been labeled a traitor and his influence would have been limited. The change that he wants, as do the American people, is not something that can come by an act like that. It takes a relentless campaign to bring out the truth and bring about change. That is not something that he would have been allowed to bring about had he done the honorable thing like you said he should have.

A hero is not always viewed as such by his own people during his time. A hero stands against wrong no matter what, and is labeled what he is based on the results he gets. War is not a pretty thing, and this is a war on a completely different scale. He is taking measures that could be skewed or viewed as radical to stand up against a system that has overstepped its legal bounds.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes, two wrongs together teach a lesson that everyone can learn from. This is why he is a hero. He has realized this, and has taken it upon himself to follow an unpopular route to acheive what should have been acheivable by legal means.

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I love how you act as if Snowden exposed some secret concentration camps where the U.S. government was holding and torturing its own citizens on trumped up charges.

Again, please, one of you Snowden fanboys link me to where he exposed government action that was in clear violation of standing U.S. law. Or perhaps explain to me how a layered, accountable bulk collection of phone data, not content, is the most pressing issue of our time.

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The change that he wants, as do the American people, is not something that can come by an act like that. It takes a relentless campaign to bring out the truth and bring about change

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Who nominated Snowded as the nations sponsor? Who said this is what the "nation" wants? I missed that.

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He is taking measures that could be skewed or viewed as radical to stand up against a system that has overstepped its legal bounds.

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What laws has the government been deemed to have overstepped since his revelations? I'm unaware of any.