re: Snowden and Putin really throwing it down on us now.

no of course they don't, why would they just welcome people to do it? they are going to have a use for anyone that they welcome. They have something Snowden seeks which is legit protection and he has something to them that makes him worthy of it. Any other country and Snowden puts himself at risk of the US gov just rolling in and taking him despite what the other country wants.

I honestly don't give a shite either way with Snowden, he looks like an arse clown but the NSA was doing shady things. I just find the argument of just go ahead and turn yourself in as something foolish. I also think it is foolish to assume any countries except Russia and China could offer true protection. The protection comes at a cost.

I don't buy into some Snowden is the downfall of America theory. We have lost plenty of other big secrets and we are rolling along. I also don't think Snowden exposing the NSA will change or even slow down the erosion of American freedoms. In the grand scheme of things this is just a story to take minds off other things.

quote:

---

How do you know this to be true?

With the scaling back/reduced efficiency of the programs he has already revealed, what makes you think we aren't more vulnerable now? Certainly that increased vulnerablity could result in loss of life. Our risk profile is greater the less information our intelligence has

---

This is a subjective argument. Sure increased vulnerability COULD result in loss of life. It didn't take a Snowden to create a vulnerability for 9/11 did it? No. OKC Bombing? Nope. Pearl Harbor? Negative. Bad things will always happen. This legislation, as most legislation these days, passed because someone thought they could stop terroristic activities, regardless of group affiliations.

You can't do that. Just like making firearms illegal won't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals. Bad people will always do bad things.

Mr. Snowden, through his SELFLESS actions, is attempting to inject change into a legal system that has taken on a policy in the last decade (or longer) of ignoring its people and doing as it pleases. He had to run for his life, and undoubtedly still fears for it, over trying to do the same things that have been praised as creating the fighting spirit that America was built on.

quote:

---

Ok...how did Snowden pointing out our obvious failings fail to achieve our ultimate "interests"?

---

I believe he did the right thing in blowing the whistle initially. Participating in a Russian propaganda piece has nothing to do with that.

quote:

---

I clearly understand it and I also understand that we have the most comfortable living standards on this planet. There will not be any sort of rebellion until the pain threshold of the people is surpassed. In reality that means that the rebellion would no longer generate worse living conditions thn exist in the countries present state. Do you believe we are anywhere close to that?

---

Um. I don't buy your theory. Would anyone argue that Russia, immediately post USSR was in "less pain" than before?

How bout Nazi Germany? Were they in less pain after their government led them to war than before?

I suspect that when our government finally reaches the end it is most certainly on the road to, that what comes after will such MUCH more than what came right before.

And, it will happen because the vast majority of Americans(again understandably) will just continue hoping the gravy train will continue until they're 6 feet under so that they don't have to experience the pain themselves.

Oh. And by the way, I don't mean to sound harsh, but what I just said is REALLY what you are describing. If our nation folds painfully(and I think it will), then it will affect someone in your progeny. Maybe not your kids. Maybe your grandkids. But, alas, you wont be here to witness it, so it doesn't scare you. Again, I understand that. I just want to clarify that is the reality.

quote:

---

By the time there are people alive who feel like the threat is upon them BEFORE they manage to die, it will be too late to do anything about it other than to wait for the pain.

---

that is when you hop onto the next ship. The beauty of the world now is traveling and moving is much easier than before

eta: of course that assumes the U.S crumbling wouldn't lead to pretty much a global depression and sort of a dark ages part 2

quote:

---

Um. I don't buy your theory. Would anyone argue that Russia, immediately post USSR was in "less pain" than before?

---

They were on much more equal footing during the end of the Soviet reign and the beginning of Russian "freedom" in relation to living conditions compared to where we are now and the life of a revolutionary.

quote:

---

How bout Nazi Germany? Were they in less pain after their government led them to war than before?

---

I am not sure how this ties in. There was no revolution in Germany that lead them to war.

quote:

---

Oh. And by the way, I don't mean to sound harsh, but what I just said is REALLY what you are describing. If our nation folds painfully(and I think it will), then it will affect someone in your progeny. Maybe not your kids. Maybe your grandkids. But, alas, you wont be here to witness it, so it doesn't scare you. Again, I understand that. I just want to clarify that is the reality.

---

Of course what we have now will end as nothing lasts but to worry about when it will happen is a waste of time and there is nothing we can do about it. I care about the things that I can control and that is the life of my family. I hope the lives of my ancestors are as wonderful as the lives we lead but that is not something I have direct control over and to worry about it is a foolish waste of time in my opinion.

Rohan:

quote:

---

I love how you act as if Snowden exposed some secret concentration camps where the U.S. government was holding and torturing its own citizens on trumped up charges.

Again, please, one of you Snowden fanboys link me to where he exposed government action that was in clear violation of standing U.S. law. Or perhaps explain to me how a layered, accountable bulk collection of phone data, not content, is the most pressing issue of our time.

---

Have you even READ the Bill of Rights? That is a legal document. The fact that any amendments being violated by this collection of data is a HUGE deal. If you can't see that, I have no words for you.

I don't think this is the BIGGEST issue of our time, but it is definitely up there. If we continue to let our government erode our rights that are inherently ours, and OVERSTEP THOSE LEGAL BOUNDS, then we have lost out on our future as a free society.

Extreme change takes extreme effort and extreme ideas. The only thing harder than getting the right thing to happen is getting the wrong things to stop.



Brah:

quote:

---

Who nominated Snowded as the nations sponsor? Who said this is what the "nation" wants? I missed that

---

Nobody nominated him. Heroes aren't selected by people. Heroes stand out on their own and are recognized for it later, when people appreciate what they have done.

And if you think that people as a majority want their shite collected, or even read for that matter, you are bat-shite nuts.

quote:

---

What laws has the government been deemed to have overstepped since his revelations? I'm unaware of any

---

See above, and take some time yourself to comepare what is happening with the NSA to a certain legal document I mentioned before.

And that is BEFORE we even talk about voter fraud and other smaller, but equally effective, means that government is using to keep the people up top in power.

quote:

---

that is when you hop onto the next ship.

---

People in E. Germany weren't allowed to jump on the next ship. Neither are people in Vietnam, N. Korea or a whole host of other places.

Totalitarian regimes tends to suck that way. Hell, we are nowhere near that level of totalitarian but if our government didn't want us to leave at some point, good f'n luck getting out.

quote:

---

Direct control? No. But, what we allow from our government today will most certainly be the reason they feel pain tomorrow. And it will most certainly be partly OUR fault because we were only too happy to watch it happen as long as the threat wasn't right around the corner.

---

And that is what Snowden was doing...initially.