Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not? - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
52086 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

quote:

I don't think he's as far left (in practice) since he has been elected as some here, but I think he is a horrible leader and doesn't have the skills.
That's a well considered opinion. The guy is not nearly as far left as some think
I suspect if he were moving toward socializing law instead of medicine, you'd have a different opinion.






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
30344 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

taxes don't spur the economy, but spending actually does.


All federal spending has to be paid for with taxes, either now or later with interest. Those of you who cannot or will not understand this are most definitely THE problem - not part of the problem, but THE problem.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
91627 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

I suspect if he were moving toward socializing law instead of medicine, you'd have a different opinion.



Actually think if he had any leadership skills, it would be much worse than the current situation. I doubt there is any Democrat that wouldn't go after health care full force.






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LSUgusto
Member since May 2005
16361 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

he isn't the far left (as President
I agree, he isn't as far left a president as his heart desires. But, that's why he seems so frustrated as a president. He thinks he's compromising with "well-meaning Republicans out there who care about their kids" by not going full totalitarian.

Hey, his job would be easier if he were dictator, or a president like China's.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
91627 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

But, that's why he seems so frustrated as a president


I think it really shows.






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PrimeTime Money
USA Fan
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
8403 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

But balancing the budget will cause a decline in the economy. No way to get around that.
It will. But artificially stimulating the economy does nothing but kick the can down the road and make the problem worse.

The economy will decline when cutting spending, but the economy will be better off for it in the long-run.

It's akin to a drug addict. You can keep shooting up more heroine in order to prevent feeling terrible after quitting. But you are slowly killing yourself.

Or you can quit and deal with the pain, and be better off for it in the future. Stimulus is like that drug-induced high.

Recessions happen for a reason. It is the economy's way of restructuring. When Washington gets involved with stimulus as a way to mitigate the pain, it distorts the recovery and creates bubbles and malinvestment, which ensures that a future recession will be even worse. So what does Washington do? Simply spend more. Give the economy another shot of heroine. But it just inflates bubbles until eventually the problems get so large we have events like the financial crisis and mortgage bubble.

How did Washington solve that problem? More stimulus. So you can be sure that the malinvestment has simply been reallocated to another sector of the economy. The next bubble will be even bigger.






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LSUAlum2001
LSU Fan
Tier BP
Member since Aug 2003
28033 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

All federal spending has to be paid for with taxes, either now or later with interest. Those of you who cannot or will not understand this are most definitely THE problem - not part of the problem, but THE problem.


This.

It isn't Monopoly money, even though they (libs) treat it as such.






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LSUgusto
Member since May 2005
16361 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

stimulating the economy does nothing but kick the can down the road and make the problem worse
Quite the conundrum for today's industrial media/political complex.






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McLemore
Member since Dec 2003
12368 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

She's just repeating what Paul Krugman writes in the NYT every week.



because she's black. lol






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Gmorgan4982
LSU Fan
Member since May 2005
99648 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

we need to SPEND SPEND SPEND"


Surely the bitch is trolling, right?
I don't think so. If you read this board, most people think that more government is the answer to nearly every problem. She's just part of the majority.






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Homesick Tiger
LSU Fan
Greenbrier, AR
Member since Nov 2006
13694 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

that's why he seems so frustrated as a president


And he brought it on himself. What should he expect after kicking the opposing party in the nuts for over four years and degrading them every chance he gets?

He really doesn't deserve an audience to now listen to him imo. He burnt up his mulligans with healthcare in the way it went down.






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boxcar willie
LSU Fan
kenner
Member since Mar 2011
4629 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

All federal spending has to be paid for with taxes, either now or later with interest.


Everyone accross the political spectrum understands that. From left wing nut jobs to right wing wackos. We've been borrowing money to pay for this debt for the last 30 years. This didn't just start yesterday. When republicans get in office, they want to increase spending and cut taxes. When Democrats get in office, they want to increase spending and raise taxes. Neither side when it comes down to it wants to pay for it. It would be political suicide. It's going to take courage and comprimise. Clinton did it. Bowles-Simpson is a reasonable Clinton like plan to do it.






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
30344 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

Everyone accross the political spectrum understands that. From left wing nut jobs to right wing wackos. We've been borrowing money to pay for this debt for the last 30 years. This didn't just start yesterday. When republicans get in office, they want to increase spending and cut taxes. When Democrats get in office, they want to increase spending and raise taxes. Neither side when it comes down to it wants to pay for it. It would be political suicide. It's going to take courage and comprimise. Clinton did it. Bowles-Simpson is a reasonable Clinton like plan to do it.


Whoa, there Willie, brah... You said that taxes don't stimulate the economy, but spending does. THEN, I pointed out, correctly, that those are actually the same thing. THEN you want to say, not in so many words, but, "But, but, but - EVERYBODY does it."

Well, then, EVERYBODY is wrong.

I love the lionization of Clinton in all of this, pushed by a Republican Congress and fueled by a massive cut in Defense Spending (and nothing else), which demonstrated a weakness our enemies sought to exploit, and almost balanced the budget, on the back of an economy that was falsely backed by the internet boom, and reversed by the bust.






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davesdawgs
Georgia Fan
Georgia - Class of '75
Member since Oct 2008
17256 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

Well Jamu Brown (sp?) the black, liberal, female debater on there ends on this "If Obama didn't have to compromise with Republicans and cut spending, we would be on the right path... we need to SPEND SPEND SPEND"


Surely the bitch is trolling, right?


Far from it. Like most delusional liberal progressives, she's a true believer in Keynesian economics. The state is the answer to domestic issues. Paul Krugman would be proud.






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boxcar willie
LSU Fan
kenner
Member since Mar 2011
4629 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

Whoa, there Willie, brah... You said that taxes don't stimulate the economy, but spending does.


i want ot correct what i said because it wasn't clear or what I meant. Cutting taxes on their own dont stimulate the economy nor does spending on its own stimulate the economy. It the increase in deficit to the budget that results from each that stimulates the economy by artificially pumping more money into the economy by borrowing money to pay for them.

quote:

almost balanced the budget, on the back of an economy that was falsely backed by the internet boom, and reversed by the bust.



there is some contoversy as to whether he balanced the budget or not. Factcheck.org says he did. Some Republican websites say he didn't.

one thing that is not in question is that the economy boomed under him dispite his raising taxes on the wealthy (so called job creators in republican terminology)






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
30344 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

there is some contoversy as to whether he balanced the budget or not. Factcheck.org says he did. Some Republican websites say he didn't.


I use a different way to calculate that - as the debt of the United States NEVER went down, I argue that the so-called "balance" was an accounting fiction, spin, propoganda, however you want to describe it. However, that's an argument for another time.

quote:

Cutting taxes on their own dont stimulate the economy


This is straight up left-wing bull$hit right here - of course cutting taxes stimulates the part of the economy that's being taxed, period. You may not reap a net return in receipts to the government, but it directly, concretely and in a measurable way stimulates the economy.

quote:

nor does spending on its own stimulate the economy.


Your following analysis on that is somewhat correct - but you're confusing "Federal Tax Receipts" with "The Economy".






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boxcar willie
LSU Fan
kenner
Member since Mar 2011
4629 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

This is straight up left-wing bull$hit right here - of course cutting taxes stimulates the part of the economy that's being taxed, period.


of course it stimulates the part of the economy that's being taxed, but in the same way that spending stimulates the part of the economy that money is being spent on.

in the end they're both just spending money that we don't have. It's just increasing the deficit






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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
30344 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

of course it stimulates the part of the economy that's being taxed


Whew. Glad we cleared that up.

quote:

but in the same way that spending stimulates the part of the economy that money is being spent on.


No, that is most definitely NOT the same. "Stimulus" by the government is by definition taking money from one group of people and spending on something, ostensibly to "spur" that activity. However to do so, it has to take money out of the economy. It is possible that money will yield greater returns to the overall economy than was taken for the poor suckers whom I will call Group A, but Group A won't necessarily benefit in proportion to what was taken from them (and almost certainly won't). In any event, it's also possible (probable, I would argue) the stimulus will fail to generate a net return, or even worse, be wasted (the only thing the government is really excellent at is wasting money).

This is part of the philosophical problem here - the left thinks of untaxed money as potential government revenue. At some point, well before 100% taxation rates, economic activity will drop to 0, because of no incentive. Tax receipts will also drop to 0 because of that reason - 100% of nothing is nothing.

Tax receipts will also drop to 0 if you drop ratest to 0%. Where is the sweet spot? Somewhere between 19.5% and 22%, because that is about optimal if you look at history. If you want to maximize tax receipts, that should be EVERYONE's effective tax rate. To "stimulate", drop it 1% - to "slow down," increase it a percent - anything else is counterproductive meddling.



This post was edited on 4/7 at 10:50 am


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boxcar willie
LSU Fan
kenner
Member since Mar 2011
4629 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

It is possible that money will yield greater returns to the overall economy than was taken for the poor suckers whom I will call Group A, but Group A won't necessarily benefit in proportion to what was taken from them


same goes for taxes. If you cut taxes for group A then you have to increase taxes on group B to balance it out. Or you can cut taxes for group A and not increase taxes on group B and increase the deficit instead. It is still the government picking and chosing who benefits.

edit: or really lobbyist influencing who gets chosen.



This post was edited on 4/7 at 11:07 am


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Ace Midnight
LSU Fan
Ball, LA - Home, Sweet Home
Member since Dec 2006
30344 posts

re: Re: Liberal Logic; Trolling or not?


quote:

If you cut taxes for group A then you have to increase taxes on group B to balance it out. Or you can cut taxes for group A and not increase taxes on group B and increase the deficit instead. It is still the government picking and chosing who benefits.


Taxes are not a zero sum game like government spending is (generally). If I cut (and let's use a popular example, capital gains) taxes from 15% to 10% - if the tax drop causes taxable transactions to double in total value - from a hypothetical $2 billion to $4 billion, net tax receipts go UP - from $300 million to $400 million.

But in any event - THIS IS NOT A REDISTRIBUTIVE PROCESS - people are allowed to keep MORE of their own money, at least as a percentage than they did before. And it is possible for everyone involved to win - buyers, sellers and tax collectors.

Government SPENDING, is actually, literally picking winners - even in a best case situation. Some government spending is necessary and should be viewed exactly as a necessary evil, because it is.

Any pretense that government spending, particularly the current habit of spending significantly in excess of receipts on anything other than contitutionally proscribed functions (i.e. running congress, DEFENSE SPENDING, federal courts, border security, facilitation of interstate commerce, etc.) - is by definition, wasting the livelihoods of our grandchildren and great grandchildren who will have to repay today's spending for 100 or so years, plus interest, without receiving any direct benefits from said spending.



This post was edited on 4/7 at 11:18 am


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