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re: Empirical evidence AGAINST intellectualism; ie The experts are generally dumber. (Long)
Posted on 5/20/19 at 6:56 pm to oogabooga68
Posted on 5/20/19 at 6:56 pm to oogabooga68
quote:precisely. that situation is so dumb. both the uk and the us saw the same intelligence reports and unanimously voted to invade. but muh oil!
There were enough WMD’s to cause massive deaths, they just weren’t the sexy kind
0
Posted on 5/21/19 at 12:04 am to bfniii
quote:
ever heard of greece?
Ancient Greece consisted of more than 1,000 city states that did not play terribly well together. And if they were unified, it was through force of arms, and internal exhaustion.
quote:
um, ever heard of america?
We're an Anglo people who have spent centuries developing a culture of live and let live. And even then, we fought a nasty civil war 150 years ago because of our inability to leave each other alone.
quote:
the concept is not that hard to comprehend
Electoral politics works, as long as everyone agrees to play by the rules. It falls apart as soon as someone decides to use force to achieve their desired goals.
People routinely resort to force of arms in the Middle East when things don't go their way.
Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Iraq. The list goes on and on.
quote:
some of them just want a theocracy, but they are the problem anyway.
If you want to transform the Middle East, or more particularly, Iraq, into a western style democracy, then sure, these people are a problem. They don't believe in democracy, and they have religious views that are incompatible with basic western values.
But their beliefs are mainline for the region. They're normal. And we don't have a hope in hell of changing how they see the world.
Which then begs the question, are they the problem, or is our attempt to transform the region the problem?
Posted on 5/21/19 at 12:20 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Which then begs the question, are they the problem, or is our attempt to transform the region the problem?
It's obviously the latter.
In terms of democracy in the ME though, the factional divides that characterized the imperial era in West Asia weren't impeded by strict readings of what the Islamic community should look like. Factions will always exist in politics, especially as areas as diverse as the ME. Parliamentary democracy is better suited to dealing with that diversity, in terms of ethnicity, class, and religious differences. But those differences make it difficult to build long-lasting institutions that can resist the dictatorial impulse of charismatic leaders.
The model of what these countries should model themselves on shouldn't be Western democracies at all, but rather India, which remains a parliamentary democracy despite its massive diversity, and its issues with uneven distribution of resources.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 3:14 am to Kcprogguitar
They have to praise stupid.
Because all of them ARE stupid.
From the orange turd all the way down to the lowest of trumpanzees.
Because all of them ARE stupid.
From the orange turd all the way down to the lowest of trumpanzees.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 3:19 am to TGFN57
quote:
TGFN57
The "intelligent" Liberals ae the ones always asking for handouts like free college and healthcare.
An intelligent person can take care of themselves.
Posted on 5/21/19 at 7:31 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:yet they maintained a democracy. in fact, they pioneered it. you're making my point for me.
Ancient Greece consisted of more than 1,000 city states that did not play terribly well together. And if they were unified, it was through force of arms, and internal exhaustion
quote:
We're an Anglo people
melting pot? we couldn't have come from more diverse backgrounds yet, we are also maintaining a democracy. the point is if it can work for ancient greece and the us, it can work in the middle east. quote:which is true of the west AND the east
It falls apart as soon as someone decides to use force to achieve their desired goals
quote:i think you would have a hard time proving that the west is significantly different over the course of western history. hell, CHRISTIANS fought the 30 years war over things like mode of baptism.
People routinely resort to force of arms in the Middle East when things don't go their way
quote:there are probably more progressive muslims than there are conservative muslims and this has possibly been true for quite some time now.
But their beliefs are mainline for the region. They're normal
quote:that's not really the right way to look at the issue. our job is to offer liberty, regardless of their reaction. the problem is the violent aspects of islam have the louder voice, just like libs in this country. not that they are more numerous or have the superior position. we show them the benefits, hope cooler heads prevail and then assist them in the effort.
Which then begs the question, are they the problem, or is our attempt to transform the region the problem?
Posted on 5/21/19 at 7:34 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:i have already provided two examples of societies with deep seated factions that successfully maintained a democracy. it's not the factions that are the inherent problem
In terms of democracy in the ME though, the factional divides that characterized the imperial era in West Asia weren't impeded by strict readings of what the Islamic community should look like. Factions will always exist in politics, especially as areas as diverse as the ME
quote:debatable
Parliamentary democracy is better suited to dealing with that diversity, in terms of ethnicity, class, and religious differences
quote:i know indian nationals who might disagree with you
The model of what these countries should model themselves on shouldn't be Western democracies at all, but rather India, which remains a parliamentary democracy despite its massive diversity, and its issues with uneven distribution of resources
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