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re: Kornheiser: Nadal has removed Federer from the discussion of G.O.A.T

Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:54 pm to
Posted by TulaneTigerFan
Seattle
Member since Sep 2005
35856 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:54 pm to
quote:

That streak started at the 2004 French Open. Nadal won his first grand slam at the 2005 French Open. Try again.


The QF streak is also still active, so I have no idea where barry was trying to go with that
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:55 pm to
quote:

Bobby was pimping some 18 year-old Aussie who won a match in the French Open. I've never seen him play, but reports are he seems like he could be a good one.

There's no obvious prodigy on the way like when Rafa was in the junior ranks.


I was, and he could be good, but I'm still having to look for these guys. With guys like Agassi, Mcenroe, Sampras, Nadal and Becker, you didn't have to look. No research was involved. They were just there, and they were kicking arse.
Posted by TulaneTigerFan
Seattle
Member since Sep 2005
35856 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:57 pm to
I liked this grantland quote on Nadal's legacy in regards to whether he can win any slams other than the FO going forward:

quote:

So that's what he's playing for now — everything, essentially. It's not a question of legacy so much as a matter of self-definition. Is he a freak of clay wizardry who took advantage of some cracks in Federer's late style to win a few mainstream majors before Djokovic showed up? Or is he the best and toughest player who's ever done this thing, someone who emerged in the immediate wake of a transcendent superstar and willed himself to out-transcend him?
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:58 pm to
quote:

I was, and he could be good, but I'm still having to look for these guys. With guys like Agassi, Mcenroe, Sampras, Nadal and Becker, you didn't have to look. No research was involved. They were just there, and they were kicking arse.


Yea there definitely doesn't seem to be one of those in the pipeline.

I always find it interesting that Rafa was the more highly acclaimed prospect whereas Fed kinda snuck-up on people. Probably has a lot to do with Rafa's sheer athleticism, but I always assumed Fed was one of those can't miss, once in a generation guys coming into the ranks.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:00 pm to
quote:

All titles are not created equally; there was time during Federer's run where the competition in men's tennis was terrible. There were numerous articles about it at the time, and while some wrote those opinions off as American jingoism, the fact remains that now we're witnessing a much stronger group in the men's field.

That said, none of that is Federer's fault; he's not responsible for his competition. But the fact remains that Nadal owns him head to head. Sure, some of that is the fact that Nadal is a bad matchup but at some point you have to believe that Nadal is better.


This is a good point. The best argument against Fed as GOAT -- other than the Nadal H2H -- is that he padded his GS count during a dreadful couple years in the game of tennis. But, to be fair, he wasn't just eeking by those guys. He was definitely beating the living frick out of them. And that's all you can really ask of him.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:06 pm to
quote:

I always find it interesting that Rafa was the more highly acclaimed prospect whereas Fed kinda snuck-up on people. Probably has a lot to do with Rafa's sheer athleticism, but I always assumed Fed was one of those can't miss, once in a generation guys coming into the ranks


He was. He just took a while to get everything figured out. He made that splash in 2001 when he beat Sampras, but he was still a couple years away. I have no good explanation.

There is an excellent article from this French magazine in 2003 about Safin and Federer. It's called "The Exceptionally Gifted Complex". It was written right before Federer won his first major. I can post the text if you'd like.
This post was edited on 6/11/13 at 10:07 pm
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:08 pm to
quote:

Is he a freak of clay wizardry who took advantage of some cracks in Federer's late style to win a few mainstream majors before Djokovic showed up?


I don't think even the biggest Rafa haters could say his wins against Fed off clay were from "cracks in Federer's late style". It def would've been tougher had this Djokovic been around forever.

quote:

Or is he the best and toughest player who's ever done this thing, someone who emerged in the immediate wake of a transcendent superstar and willed himself to out-transcend him?


If he does win a handful more, taking into account his injury battles, this seems like an accurate description.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:09 pm to
quote:

I liked this grantland quote on Nadal's legacy in regards to whether he can win any slams other than the FO going forward:


I like Brian Phillips.
Posted by TulaneTigerFan
Seattle
Member since Sep 2005
35856 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:11 pm to
quote:

I don't think even the biggest Rafa haters could say his wins against Fed off clay were from "cracks in Federer's late style".


Yeah, I almost posted a disclaimer that I thought the first portion of the quote was a little harsh on Nadal. I do think he's making a very valid point overall though.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:15 pm to
From Brian Phillips (after AO 2012):

quote:

Until this tournament, I never fully realized how much Nadal means to tennis. I knew he was a great player, obviously. But I'm a goner for Federer, and Nadal has often felt to me like an infuriating obstacle, a berserk dervish with the demonic power to out-frenzy Roger's grace and lucidity. His tennis was a bludgeoning adrenaline rush, a Ramones song that lasted four hours. Had he never been born, Federer would have won the 20 majors he seemed destined for in 2007. I admired what Nadal had done, and I loved the insanity at the top of the men's bracket. But deep down, in some atavistic corner of my sports fan's heart, I kind of wanted him gone.

What I realized during this Australian Open is that Nadal sets the tone for this state of affairs more than anyone else, certainly more than Federer. Roger is so cool and frictionless that, most of the time, he seems less like a prism of epic intensity than a dispassionate analyst of it.6 Djokovic, since his ascent, has been so much better than everyone else that he's largely been able to act like a careful clinician, the administrator of his own talent. And Murray has lost to the other guys so often that his anger and frustration seem basically inconsequential. In other words, the game may be epic for the fans, but you won't always catch that ground note of holy-shite intensity if you only watch the other three players. Left to themselves, they don't exactly project deep contact with the secret fires of time.

Nadal, though? He plays like he's fighting giants. It's not just the sneer, or the muscles, or the hair, or that forehand — you know, the one where he swoops the racket all the way around his head like he's whipping the team pulling his chariot. It's also that frantic tenacity that used to drive me so nuts. Federer seems devastated when he loses but he also seems to sense losses coming and accept them before they arrive. When Nadal falls behind, he turns the match into life and death. He gets mad. He hesitates less. He hits the ball harder. He doesn't look sad or scared. He looks defiant, and he plays like he's possessed.

As a result, he carries matches to a higher plane than they have any business reaching. Djokovic could and should have won the Australian final in four sets, but Nadal refused to surrender, played lethal tennis, and took Djokovic to a place he'd never been. Instead of notching a routine victory, Djokovic had to tap into the same well of inspiration that Nadal was already drawing from. You could say that all these guys have learned what it means to fight on the plains of Troy because Nadal does it in every match. And we see him do it, so we know what it means, too.
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:16 pm to
quote:

Yeah, I almost posted a disclaimer that I thought the first portion of the quote was a little harsh on Nadal. I do think he's making a very valid point overall though.


Yea if he only wins Frenchs from this point on is he a true all-surface champ? Winning 11 Frenchs would be incredible, but it would certainly help if he could throw in another off the clay.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:20 pm to
quote:

Yea if he only wins Frenchs from this point on is he a true all-surface champ? Winning 11 Frenchs would be incredible, but it would certainly help if he could throw in another off the clay.


Or two. And against Djokovic.
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:21 pm to
quote:

Nadal, though? He plays like he's fighting giants. It's not just the sneer, or the muscles, or the hair, or that forehand — you know, the one where he swoops the racket all the way around his head like he's whipping the team pulling his chariot. It's also that frantic tenacity that used to drive me so nuts. Federer seems devastated when he loses but he also seems to sense losses coming and accept them before they arrive. When Nadal falls behind, he turns the match into life and death. He gets mad. He hesitates less. He hits the ball harder. He doesn't look sad or scared. He looks defiant, and he plays like he's possessed.


This is why I've always loved watching Nadal. Sure his athleticism and playing style is something I prefer over Federer, but it's mainly just the intensity the guy plays with. It's the mindset you think of from an NFL LB not a tennis pro. It will never be duplicated again on tour!

quote:

As a result, he carries matches to a higher plane than they have any business reaching. Djokovic could and should have won the Australian final in four sets, but Nadal refused to surrender, played lethal tennis, and took Djokovic to a place he'd never been. Instead of notching a routine victory, Djokovic had to tap into the same well of inspiration that Nadal was already drawing from. You could say that all these guys have learned what it means to fight on the plains of Troy because Nadal does it in every match. And we see him do it, so we know what it means, too.


For sure I try my best and it bring out best in him, no?

Rafa translation haha. His tenacity and spirit has absolutely led to him being a part of some of the greatest tennis matches ever played. Like the writer stated, I don't question Federer's will to win, no one does. However, he, like most all tennis players, can seemingly see it coming in those matches where he's not feeling it. Rafa literally make it seem like his life is dependent upon the match when he gets down. It's awesome!
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:23 pm to
That's an awesome article by the way !

There's no doubt Rafa and Federer both pushed each other to a level of tennis they never would've reached without the other. Djokovic is now adding to that.

Such an awesome time for tennis!
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:25 pm to
quote:

Rafa translation haha.


Dude, I do it all the time. Talking in Rafa-speak is just tons of fun, no?
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:25 pm to
quote:

He was. He just took a while to get everything figured out. He made that splash in 2001 when he beat Sampras, but he was still a couple years away. I have no good explanation.


I can see that. Someone like Rafa can get by on his athleticism whereas Fed reached that elite level with more time-honed skills like his perfect footwork and mobility.

quote:

There is an excellent article from this French magazine in 2003 about Safin and Federer. It's called "The Exceptionally Gifted Complex". It was written right before Federer won his first major. I can post the text if you'd like.


If you got it, that'd be nice.

I would love, in a perfect world, to see what Safin could be if you put Rafa/Fed's work ethic into his body. He's probably the most physically gifted player in the sport's history and that shithead didn't give a fvck!
Posted by FootballNostradamus
Member since Nov 2009
20509 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:29 pm to
quote:

Dude, I do it all the time. Talking in Rafa-speak is just tons of fun, no?


For sure
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:31 pm to
quote:

This is why I've always loved watching Nadal. Sure his athleticism and playing style is something I prefer over Federer, but it's mainly just the intensity the guy plays with. It's the mindset you think of from an NFL LB not a tennis pro. It will never be duplicated again on tour!


quote:

His tenacity and spirit has absolutely led to him being a part of some of the greatest tennis matches ever played. Like the writer stated, I don't question Federer's will to win, no one does. However, he, like most all tennis players, can seemingly see it coming in those matches where he's not feeling it. Rafa literally make it seem like his life is dependent upon the match when he gets down. It's awesome!



And I agree with all of the above. I've been a Rafa fan since the first time I ever saw him play. I'd never seen anything like it. He was like half tennis player, half tiger.
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:32 pm to
The "Exceptionally Gifted" Complex
Marat Safin and Roger Federer
06.24.2003
L'Equipe Magazine (France)
By Jean Issartel
Translated by Lola.. Thanks Lola!!

Frankly, I would not like to be Marat Safin, it must be very tough to have such a big talent with such a devious/tortuous mind. Roger Federer seems to accept more his gift, but as far as I know it has not always been the same. And sometimes, he still lives some frustrations because of his talent. Only Mats Wilander may feel sorry for genius. Marat is his friend "one of the best", but Mats used to coach him and he sized up at which point Marat is a victim of the "exceptionally gifted's complex".
Either Roger Federer's sydrome is not exactly the same or he is less struck down by the complex. And Marc Rosset knows what he is talking about and what he is nicely making fun of. The captain of the Swiss Davis Cup team is a very good friend of Federer and he used to coach Safin; he is also aware of the Russian's mental's intricacies and his unbelievable potential.

Wilander knows it too: "For sure, Roger and Marat are the two most talented guys on the tour. But their talents are totally different." "Marat, it's a physical gift", says Rosset. "He is the prototype of the player of the future: enough tall to serve strong and to have a good wingspread/scope but not too tall to move well on the court; powerful to hit the ball strong but not too powerful to be slender and fluid. Plus he has a perfect timing and a good eye. Nobody can hit as strong as Marat. Roger is brilliant because he can invent wonderful shots and he feels very good his game. As far as I know, nobody has as much delicacy/finesse and good feeling as Roger. And he has those shots ... When I saw Roger practicing, I saw him making some shots that I had never seen before. He can do all the shots in tennis and probably some others that don't belong to this sport."

Roger summarizes this ability with modesty and simplicity: " I have a hand, and a good hand... And I am also fluid and relaxed on the court, maybe because of this, people say that I am talented. It's difficult for me to talk about it, but it's true that I can do a lot of things with a racquet. What people have difficulty in understanding it's that this talent could also be a drawback."

Marat Safin has other words to explain it. He talks with passion as always when he speaks of something which really touches him, when he talks about something that he is burning to share or to make understand:
"But, who understand me? How many people ? What I want, sometimes I don't know it myself... that's why I can understand that people have difficulties in grasping me. What I want is to succeed to hit every shot as the best of all my shots. I want to achieve my perfection. And I want it too often. That is what wears me down, that is what drives me crazy. Nobody knows what happens in my brain, so everybody says that I am mad. Maybe... but me, I love this game too much, I love too much feeling that I am "in the zone", I love feeling that I am faithful, that I remain true to what I have in my brain as a model. It's so good to feel it that I have difficulties in accepting to play under this feeling."

As Mats Wilander explains, the problem is that "Marat sets the bar too high. His reference match is his victory against Pete Sampras in the final of the US Open 2000 and it's impossible to have the perfection as a model/as a reference, otherwise you feel tired, it gets on your nerves and you lose".

"Does it get on my nerves? It is 1000 times worse," laughs Marat. "Tennis, when it comes as I want, I adore it. But when I am not playing that well, it's horrible and I start to call everything into question. I told myself:
This post was edited on 6/11/13 at 10:33 pm
Posted by bobbyray21
Member since Sep 2009
9490 posts
Posted on 6/11/13 at 10:32 pm to
'But shite! What am I doing here? shite! What is my life? Look at your game, look at what you're doing, it's crap!' I do suffer in those moments."

And sometimes, when Marat is suffering, he shortens his pain. That gets on Mats Wilander's nerves: "Genius as him can win 6-1 6-1 nine times in a row against the same player and lose the 10th time because it's a little bit more tight. Me against the same player I won 10 times in a row and I broke him almost always at the same moment of the match. The very gifted players forget too much that there is a guy in front of him, they think that they are playing golf that's why it surprises them when the ball comes back too often. So, they give up because they are afraid of having to take the defeat".

To give up in a match? Yes, it happened to Marat to lose voluntarily a match in order to not have to assume the fact that he had been defeated. Marc Rosset understands it, he did it before: "Tennis is a psychological sport. Every week you are disappointed, unless you win a tournament. The disappointment is a part of the life of a champion and you have an other chance the week after. Me I sometimes gave up in my matches, because when you give up it's not a defeat, it's a way to keep your confidence capital."

"Marat is like that too, he is temperamental, like Goran Ivanisevic. The problem is that after the event, you start to think too much of what you did, you remind you of all the opportunities you missed because you were too damn stupid to fight, to accept the prospect of being defeated. Isn't it weird to tell yourself 'I'm going to lose because I don't accept the prospect to be defeated, because I am afraid of this idea, because this prospect makes me panick so much that I lose all my lucidity.' To lose intentionally in order to not be defeated."

This is what happened to Marat in the final of the Australian Open 2002. Since, swear both Rosset and Wilander, 'Marat became aware that it's not a shame to be defeated, but that it is a shame to not fight.'

"Federer is too well educated to act like that", says Rosset, "he is too honest and to give up it's like to lie to himself. Roger never lies". Federer's coach Peter Lundgren follows Marc "Roger is a regular guy, a good sort. He lives the things as a normal person while he has an exceptional gift. That was, by the way, the origin of his problems. It's tough to hear people tell you, since your childhood, 'you're a genius', 'you'll be the number one'. Roger is frank and honest. He knows that he has a gift, but he wasn't capable of standing this pressure. When he was a kid, he used to break racquets. Thanks to a psychologist this kind of problem is from the past. He is on the good/right way. He starts to be less negative, thinking more of what he succeeded than of what he failed. He is more disciplined, he really knows what he wants and what he has to do to reach his goal. Above all, he knows what he must not do.

According to Marc Rosset: "sometimes Roger falls in the easy way. He dominates the match, he controls the match but he forgets to hammer in the nail. And when the situation turns against him, he becomes crazy. In fact, Roger has to learn to be more nasty, to accept to make ugly matches to win. In a Grand Slam, it's normal and obvious to have a bad day, and this is this day which makes the difference. This is on this day that Roger has to accept to be a normal player, a player who has to win without exciting the crowd, without inventing shots. I think he has understood it and he is going to do it."

In that case, Roger would have been right to say that "he found himself", that he has "understood that miraculous shots excite the crowd but not necessarily help to win a match". In fact he stops to ruin his life, to ruin his game. He has digested his gift and "started to get to work". According to Rosset: "What impressed me most in Roger it's his physical progress. Now he can succeed because he has the legs to
This post was edited on 6/11/13 at 10:33 pm
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