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re: What do you think of when you think 'Catholicism'?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:21 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:21 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Laughing doesn't make my words any less true. The Bible was a book written by Catholics, assembled by Catholics, and commissioned by Catholics. Why then would it not be a book that can only be interpreted and preached on by Catholics?
Oh boy. A lot is showing here.
The original manuscripts of the bible were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. The Hebrew Scriptures (or 'Old Testament') was written before Christianity was even born (The Greek scriptures). When you get a chance, look up the 'Dead Sea Scrolls', discovered in the past century. An amazing find.
Over 40 different people were inspired to write books of the bible, with its Author being God. No Christian would ever take credit for the bible, it's commission, or the teachings therein for anything other than God's inspired word.
I can understand the confusion as the Catholic Church inundates the laity with nonsense like the 'infallibility of the Pope'.
Trust me, even in a thousands year old book, Gods thoughts are greater than man's.
2
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:21 pm to constant cough
Serious question so please don't think I am being condescending or casting dispersions on many on here. But do you truly believe that a Virgin was taken by a good man not her husband to a manger to have her child which is the son of God and was visited by wise men from the East and hid out while Herod sent out soldiers to kill the child? I tried and prayed for years to gain clarity on the subject, honestly. I just could not. If you do please give me insight in how it was shown to you in your faith and study.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:23 pm to EthanL
Charity and generosity.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:23 pm to constant cough
What always strikes me in religious arguments, is that it is known/said that man is fallible. And that man sins.
So why are people surprised when bad people do bad things? What is the surprise there?
How are people who have faith responsible for the actions of others? Whether they are associated with the Church or not?
Seems like a standard is being put on just regular people to me.
And again, we need a religion board. I would spend all my time there and the movie board.
So why are people surprised when bad people do bad things? What is the surprise there?
How are people who have faith responsible for the actions of others? Whether they are associated with the Church or not?
Seems like a standard is being put on just regular people to me.
And again, we need a religion board. I would spend all my time there and the movie board.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:23 pm to EthanL
How has this thread not been whaked yet? Admins must be asleep tonight, or have the rules changed.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:23 pm to JazzyJeff
The East is still just mad about that whole IVth Crusade thing.
Hey, sorry for partying.
Hey, sorry for partying.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:25 pm to EthanL
quote:So how did the bible, New Testament, we have today come about? Did it fall out of the sky?
No Christian would ever take credit for the bible, it's commission,
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:28 pm to LaFlyer
quote:
Serious question so please don't think I am being condescending or casting dispersions on many on here. But do you truly believe that a Virgin was taken by a good man not her husband to a manger to have her child which is the son of God and was visited by wise men from the East and hid out while Herod sent out soldiers to kill the child? I tried and prayed for years to gain clarity on the subject, honestly. I just could not. If you do please give me insight in how it was shown to you in your faith and study.
What do you believe makes this story untrue?
I'll ask my own question. I'm good with the Big Bang Theory on the creation of the universe. I actually think that's how that started.
Explain to me, how did the bang theory happen? What was the initial cause to that? Where did the molecule come from that set it off?
Can you explain that?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:29 pm to EthanL
So you're saying that the Bible merely plopped out of thin air? Or are you trying to argue that every Christian knew from the very beginning which books were inspired and which books were fraudulent?
At the end of the first century, there were 27 different gospels (that we know of) being read at mass/worship/church. That's including the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In addition to the gospels that we know and love today, there were 23 other gospels that first and second century Christians thought were a) the inspired word of God and b) written by an apostle.
Also...there were serious questions about the authenticity of a few other books that made it into the New Testament, books that include Revelation, 2 Peter, Jude, and 1 and 2 James.
So with all of this in mind, who is it that distinguishes the inspired Word of God from the frauds? I'll give you a hint - the Catholic Church.
In the late 4th century and early 5th century, the Catholic Church put together the canon of scripture we know today as the Bible. Therefore, it is based on the authority of the Catholic Church that we believe the Bible to be the true and inspired Word of God.
At the end of the first century, there were 27 different gospels (that we know of) being read at mass/worship/church. That's including the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In addition to the gospels that we know and love today, there were 23 other gospels that first and second century Christians thought were a) the inspired word of God and b) written by an apostle.
Also...there were serious questions about the authenticity of a few other books that made it into the New Testament, books that include Revelation, 2 Peter, Jude, and 1 and 2 James.
So with all of this in mind, who is it that distinguishes the inspired Word of God from the frauds? I'll give you a hint - the Catholic Church.
In the late 4th century and early 5th century, the Catholic Church put together the canon of scripture we know today as the Bible. Therefore, it is based on the authority of the Catholic Church that we believe the Bible to be the true and inspired Word of God.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:31 pm to Wild Thang
I hope I didn't come off saying it untrue, just couldn't come to grips with it personally and wanted to gain some knowledge on the subject from those who accept it and how they came to believe.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:31 pm to LaFlyer
quote:
Serious question so please don't think I am being condescending or casting dispersions on many on here. But do you truly believe that a Virgin was taken by a good man not her husband to a manger to have her child which is the son of God and was visited by wise men from the East and hid out while Herod sent out soldiers to kill the child? I tried and prayed for years to gain clarity on the subject, honestly. I just could not. If you do please give me insight in how it was shown to you in your faith and study.
Oh me? I'm agnostic. I'm just fascinated by history and religious history. But I was baptized Roman Catholic.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:40 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
have read it. Amen! I agree with every bit of it.
Ultimately, however, your case is a fruitless one since 2 Timothy 3:16-17 merely says that Scripture is profitable or useful for teaching, not that it is mandatory for teaching every individual point of theology. A hammer is profitable or useful for driving nails, but that does not mean that nails can be driven only by hammers (as anyone can testify who is lucky enough to have a nail gun or unfortunate enough to have had to drive a nail with a random blunt object which was at hand).
I can't keep up.
RollTide, I downvoted you because you did not either (1) read the scripture. or (2) chose to ignore it
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
16 All scripture is given by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 In order that the man of God may be a whole man, rounded out to a fitness for every good work
That sounds pretty complete to me
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:44 pm to LaFlyer
quote:
I hope I didn't come off saying it untrue, just couldn't come to grips with it personally and wanted to gain some knowledge on the subject from those who accept it and how they came to believe.
It's fine what you believe or don't believe.
I'm not one to judge. But I always come back to a point a teacher in HS made....
Go all the way to the Big Bang Theory. I actually believe something like that happened.
What caused it though? Where did something come from that couldn't have existed since the universe didn't?
Something, at one point, was created to get the ball rolling. Who created that single issue? How did it happen if there was just nothing?
There is no scientific explanation for that.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:48 pm to LaFlyer
quote:
Serious question so please don't think I am being condescending or casting dispersions on many on here. But do you truly believe that a Virgin was taken by a good man not her husband to a manger to have her child which is the son of God and was visited by wise men from the East and hid out while Herod sent out soldiers to kill the child? I tried and prayed for years to gain clarity on the subject, honestly. I just could not. If you do please give me insight in how it was shown to you in your faith and study.
I'm pretty sure there is documentation regarding this.
I would need to read up on this to fully debate it honestly.
I'm in my 30's now, so Ive forgotten quite a bit.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:52 pm to EthanL
quote:
That sounds pretty complete to me
Perhaps you should also take into consideration the context of the passage instead of treating it as if it's on an island all by itself.
The context of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop.
Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17).
In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us."
"...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.
Not one passage in the Bible uses the word "sufficient" to describe the role of Scripture in our daily lives. Each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:53 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
So you're saying that the Bible merely plopped out of thin air?
Of course not. I'm saying the complete bible, is God's inspired word. His servants wrote what they were inspired to write. Not Catholics.
quote:
At the end of the first century, there were 27 different gospels (that we know of) being read at mass/worship/church
RollTide, these types of silly remarks may fly in the face of reason for people on this board that don't study the bible, but not me. I'll be honest with you, a degree in theology did nothing for me spiritually, but I did do a lot of unnecessary digging historical during that time:
You are familiar with the Apostle John right? He wrote one of the last books of the bible: the gospel according to John. This account was written almost 60 years after the other three were written. John, in his account, not only acknowledges the other 3, but adds some glimpses into Jesus' prehuman existence (The entire first chapter of John}
Now think about that, Luke, in Luke 1:1-4, acknowledged many other 'accounts' of Jesus' life and ministry, but John, 60 years later, accredited only 3.
The last surviving apostle, John, certified the 4 Gospels we have today, not the Catholic Church.
This post was edited on 9/23/14 at 11:58 pm
Posted on 9/24/14 at 12:01 am to EthanL
quote:There were other gospels as well. Why weren't they included? And why was John included? Who decided?
The last surviving apostle, John, certified the 4 Gospels we have today, not the Catholic Church.
Posted on 9/24/14 at 12:01 am to EthanL
quote:
You are familiar with the Apostle John right? He wrote one of the last books of the bible: the gospel according to John. This account was written almost 60 years after the other three were written. J
Thats common knowledge.
quote:
Now think about that, Luke, in Luke 1:1-4, acknowledged many other 'accounts' of Jesus' life and ministry, but John, 60 years later, accredited only 3.
The last surviving apostle, John, certified the 4 Gospels we have today, not the Catholic Church.
Can you expand on the point you are making?
Posted on 9/24/14 at 12:03 am to EthanL
Extreme top down management
Very impressive rituals.
Not hung up on the small stuff like alcohol and dancing.
Like any other big institution, there's a lot of bureacratic inertia. The ship is very slow to turn around.
There are some things I respect about it, and some things I abhor. It encompasses the best and worst of humanity.
Very impressive rituals.
Not hung up on the small stuff like alcohol and dancing.
Like any other big institution, there's a lot of bureacratic inertia. The ship is very slow to turn around.
There are some things I respect about it, and some things I abhor. It encompasses the best and worst of humanity.
Posted on 9/24/14 at 12:04 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Not one passage in the Bible uses the word "sufficient" to describe the role of Scripture in our daily lives. Each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it.
Scripture alone is not sufficient live a live wholly acceptable and dedicated to God. Wisdom, the successful application of knowledge, has to happen also.
But that's not what we are talking about. You took that scripture to explain a tangent of spiritual progress or growth. We are talking about basic bible truths and teachings, or doctrine. They are all found in the bible. Nothing, as you correctly pointed out, needs to be added or taken away from it.
Tell me Rolltide, what carries more weight in the Catholic Church...the bible, or the dogma?
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