- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Supreme Court rules against 'Straw Purchasers' of Guns
Posted on 6/17/14 at 8:32 am to SpidermanTUba
Posted on 6/17/14 at 8:32 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Then by all means, explain it to me.
I'll explain it, but you most likely won't accept it.
quote:
"The right guaranteed under the Second Amendment is limited specifically to the arming of a `well-regulated Militia' that can be compared today to the National Guard."
The Second Amendment reads: "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
In contrast to other portions of the Constitution, this Amendment contains no qualifiers, no "buts" or "excepts."
It is a straightforward statement affirming t he people's right to possess firearms.
The perception that the Second Amendment guarantees a "collective right" or a "right of states to form militias" rather than an individual right is a wholly inaccurate 20th-century invention.
Historically, the term "militia" refers to the people at large, armed and ready to defend their homeland and their freedom with arms supplied by themselves (U.S. v. Miller, 1939). Federal law (Title 10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code) states:
"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age...." Moreover, historical records, including Constitutional Convention debates and the Federalist Papers, clearly indicate that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to guard against the tyranny that the Framers of the Constitution feared could be perpetrated by any professional armed body of government.
The arms, records and ultimate control of the National Guard today lie with the Federal Government, so that it clearly is not the "mi litia" protected from the federal government.
The Supreme Court recently affirmed this virtually unlimited control of the Guard by the federal government in the case of Perpich v. Department of Defense (1990). The Court held that the power of Congress over the National Guard is plenary (entire, absolute, unlimited) and such power is not restricted by the Constitution's Militia Clause. The Second Amendment was not even mentioned by the Court, undoubtedly because it does not serve as a source of power for a state to have a National Guard.
In The Federalist No. 29, Alexander Hamilton argued that the army would always be a "select corps of moderate size" and that the "people at large (were) properly armed" to serve as a fundamental check against the standing army, the most dreaded of institutions. James Madison, in
The Federalist No. 46, noted that unlike the governments of Europe which were "afraid to trust the people with arms," the American people would continue under the new Constitution to possess "the advantage of being armed," and thereby would continually be able to form the militia when needed as a "barrier against the enterprises of despotic ambition."
A 1990 Supreme Court decision regarding searches and seizures confirmed that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right, held by "the people"--a term of art employed in the Preamble and the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments referring to all "persons who are part of a national community" (U.S. v. Verdu go-Urquidez, 1990).
The case of U.S. v. Miller (1939) is frequently, though erroneously, cited as the definitive ruling that the right to keep and bear arms is a "collective" right, protecting the right of states to keep a militia rather than the individual right to possess arms. But that was not the issue in Miller, and no such ruling was made; the word "collective" is not used any place in the court's decision.
While such a decision was sought by the Justice Department, the Court decided only that the National Firearms Act of 1934 was constitutional in the absence of evidence to the contrary. The case hinged on the narrow question of whether a sawed-off shotgun was suitable for militia use, and its ownership by individuals thus protected b y the Second Amendment.
The Court ruled that: "In the absence of (the presentation of) any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a `shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice--common knowledge, that need not be proven in court--that this weapon is any part of the military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."
Because no evidence or argument was presented except by the federal government, the Court was not made aware that some 30,000 short-barreled shotguns were used as "trench guns" during World War I.
The Supreme Court has ruled on only three other cases relating to the Second Amendment--all during the last half of the nineteenth century. In each of these cases, the Court held that the Second Amendment only restricted actions of the federal government, not of private individuals (U.S. v. Cruikshank, 1876) or state governments (Presser v. Illinois, 1886, and Miller v. Texas, 1894). The Court also held, in Presser, that the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of assembly did not apply to the states; and in Miller v. Texas, it held that the Fourth Amendment guarantee against unreasonable search and seizure did not apply to the states, since the Court believed that all the amendm ents comprising the Bill of Rights were limitations solely on the powers of Congress, not upon the powers of the states.
It was not until two generations later that the Court began to rule, through the Fourteenth Amendment, that the First, Fourth, and other provisions of the Bill of Rights limited both Congress and state legislatures. No similar decision concerning the Second Amendment has ever been made in spite of contemporary scholarship proving that the purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was t o apply all of the rights in the Bill of Rights to the states.
12 That research proves that the Fourteenth Amendment was made a part of the Constitution to prevent states from depriving the newly freed slaves of the rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights , including what the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision referred to as one of the rights of citizens, the right "to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
The only significance of the Supreme Court's refusal to hear a challenge to the hand- gun ban imposed by Morton Grove, Illinois, is that the Court will still not rush to apply the Second Amendment to the states. The refusal to hear the case has no legal significance and, indeed, it would have been very unusual for the Court to make a decision involving the U.S. Constitution when the Illinois courts had not yet decided if Morton Grove's ban conflicted with the state's constitution.
* 12 Halbrook, That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right (Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1984).
Posted on 6/17/14 at 8:34 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:I'm not the issue.
You don't know, do you?
There are literally thousands of available references and source documents. If you want to wallow in your ignorance, by all means go ahead.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 8:35 am to Taxing Authority
when I hear a gun grabber bring up "militia" I know then and there that they are extremely uneducated on the matter.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 9:32 am to monsterballads
quote:
It is a straightforward statement affirming t he people's right to possess firearms.
The second amendment does not say "firearms" or "guns". It says "arms", which by definition is weaponry. So by the strict interpretation that the NRA uses, any citizen should be allowed ANY weapon, including chemical, biological, nuclear, etc, as they are "arms". Could we survive with this kind off complete deregulation? Of course not. Any pragmatic conversation on this topic has to agree that a line has to be drawn somewhere. Which is why the "well regulated" is part of the 2nd.
This post was edited on 6/17/14 at 9:40 am
Posted on 6/17/14 at 9:43 am to PVnRT
quote:Link to this NRA position that everyone should have WMDs?
So by the strict interpretation that the NRA uses, any citizen should be allowed ANY weapon, including chemical, biological, nuclear, etc, as they are "arms".
Posted on 6/17/14 at 9:56 am to BamaFan89
This board has been using the argument that background checks or not allowing straw purchases is an infringement on the 2nd. If that's the case, then not allowing someone to stockpile bombs in their garage is a violation of the 2nd, as they are "arms".
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:06 am to PVnRT
quote:
This board has been using the argument that background checks or not allowing straw purchases is an infringement on the 2nd
So no link to the NRA position?
This board is not the NRA.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:29 am to PVnRT
quote:
So by the strict interpretation that the NRA uses, any citizen should be allowed ANY weapon, including chemical, biological, nuclear, etc, as they are "arms".
Wrong. Arms as in firearms. Weapons you carry by arm/hand.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:31 am to PVnRT
quote:
If that's the case, then not allowing someone to stockpile bombs in their garage is a violation of the 2nd, as they are "arms".
Jesus Christ what a straw man you have presented here
Firearms man. Guns, rifles.
Not fricking nuclear weapons.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:32 am to Scoop
These damn liberal judges basically admit that even though there is no legislation that supports it WE GONNA INVENT A LAW, like we did in Roe vs. Wade.
Ought to be tried for treason.
This is why our judicial branch has basically become nothing more than a political game of football, and why THEY DON'T NEED TO BE DECIDING CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.
Ought to be tried for treason.
This is why our judicial branch has basically become nothing more than a political game of football, and why THEY DON'T NEED TO BE DECIDING CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:43 am to monsterballads
quote:
Jesus Christ what a straw man you have presented here Firearms man. Guns, rifles. Not fricking nuclear weapons.
Lol. It say "arms", not firearms . Sorry.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 10:49 am to PVnRT
quote:
PVnRT
You read an argument somewhere else and came here to regurgitate it like a cat vomiting a hairball.
Nuclear weapons aren't 'arms' in this context, but even if they were, do you have any clue what it takes to actually own and maintain a nuclear weapon? Do you think a private citizen could just whip up a bomb and have it sitting in his garage?
Your time might be better spent helping Dabo craft an excuse for his upcoming loss to Spurrier.
This post was edited on 6/17/14 at 10:54 am
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:02 am to weagle99
I'm still waiting on his link to the NRA's position that private citizens should be able to have biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:10 am to VOR
quote:
Honestly, I'm amazed at the hysteria that rears its head form time to time among gun ownership rights activists
Because the blame is misplaced. What little gun problem (and violence problem) we have in this country is limited to minorities and certain areas of certain cities. Yet, whites and the NRA are always blamed.
As for the threat of violence caused by people not in terrible neighborhoods (yes even school shootings) many people are not afraid to sacrifice some safety for freedom.
This post was edited on 6/17/14 at 11:16 am
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:15 am to weagle99
Um, no. Every time gun legislation and/or regulation comes up(reasonable or not), the pro gun crowd screams 2nd amendment as their reason for opposition to any regulation. They mistakenly think the 2nd amendment says guns or firearms, which it does not. It says "arms", which by definition, encompasses all weaponry. Therefore, if you use the argument of the 2nd amendment against any and all regulation of guns, then that same stance holds true for all weapons. Instead, the pro gun crowd is picking and choosing when to be pragmatic and when to adamantly scream "infringement". Can't have it both ways.
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:30 am to S.E.C. Crazy
quote:
This is why our judicial branch has basically become nothing more than a political game of football, and why THEY DON'T NEED TO BE DECIDING CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.
Who needs to be deciding constitutional law?
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:30 am to PVnRT
LOL...Since no one can make "straw purchases", does that mean all the soldiers have to buy their own weapons? I mean technically the government can't purchase for them , correct?
Posted on 6/17/14 at 11:51 am to Sentrius
How the help can they prove you are a straw? Can you not buy a gun as a gift without putting the recipient on a federal list?
Posted on 6/17/14 at 12:02 pm to PVnRT
quote:we pretty much have to. if it wasn't for the NRA, we'd be defending our home with slingshots against folks with big bad semi auto assault rifles
Um, no. Every time gun legislation and/or regulation comes up(reasonable or not), the pro gun crowd screams 2nd amendment as their reason for opposition to any regulation.
quote:we don't 'mistakenly' anything. some folks on this board and myself are some of the most knowledgeable people on the 2A and federalist papers that you will find.
They mistakenly think the 2nd amendment says guns or firearms, which it does not. It says "arms", which by definition, encompasses all weaponry
your argument is just plain silly...any reasonable person can distinguish btwn WMD's and what the 2A was written for. no one is getting it both ways.
do you think it is 'reasonable' for US citizens to register with the Fed Govt before publishing literature or posting on the internet?
Posted on 6/17/14 at 12:54 pm to PVnRT
quote:
Um, no. Every time gun legislation and/or regulation comes up(reasonable or not), the pro gun crowd screams 2nd amendment as their reason for opposition to any regulation. They mistakenly think the 2nd amendment says guns or firearms, which it does not. It says "arms", which by definition, encompasses all weaponry. Therefore, if you use the argument of the 2nd amendment against any and all regulation of guns, then that same stance holds true for all weapons. Instead, the pro gun crowd is picking and choosing when to be pragmatic and when to adamantly scream "infringement". Can't have it both ways.
Well, next time Congress is considering a ban on the ownership of pole axes, spiked mauls, flails, and 2-handed great swords, I'll be sure to write my Congressman.
The reason they are always opposing "guns" and not other arms is because guns are the only thing that the majority of citizens can afford that the government ever spends any real time trying to ban. The federal government isn't passing bans on the sale of trebuchets. They're not regulating crossbows, Greecian flamethrowers, or katanas, they're regulating guns.
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News