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Started By
Message
re: SCOTUS Lifts stay on Ledell Lee execution
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:06 am to beebefootballfan
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:06 am to beebefootballfan
If the system was perfect, I would be okay with the Death Penalty.
Sadly, it is not - it is filled with humans who can make mistakes, who can manipulate for their own gain, who can - and have - seen innocent people die to save face.
If a person isn't put to death, then you at least have the chance of correcting the mistake - even if they end up spending a large amount of time in prison. A person put to death cannot be freed after it turns out they never did it.
LINK
List of those freed who had been on Death Row
More Info
I'm not anti-death penalty because I'm a hippie, or because my religion tells me I should or should not.
I'm anti-death penalty because it's a flawed system and killing people in a flawed system is wrong. I don't need Jesus to tell me that.
Sadly, it is not - it is filled with humans who can make mistakes, who can manipulate for their own gain, who can - and have - seen innocent people die to save face.
quote:
2015 set a record for exonerations in the United States—149 that we know of so far, in 29 states, the District of Columbia, federal courts and Guam. This record continues a trend: the rate of exonerations has been increasing rapidly for several years. The 149 defendants who were exonerated in 2015 had served on average about 14-and-a-half years in prison.
quote:
Homicides: A record 58 defendants were exonerated in homicide cases in 2015, 54 for murder and 4 for manslaughter. They came from 25 states and the District of Columbia. More than two-thirds were minorities, including half who were African American.
If a person isn't put to death, then you at least have the chance of correcting the mistake - even if they end up spending a large amount of time in prison. A person put to death cannot be freed after it turns out they never did it.
LINK
quote:
The annual tally of false convictions has more than doubled since 2011, the registry said. All told, its researchers have recorded 1,733 exonerations since 1989.
quote:
In one such case, three men were cleared of setting a fire in 1980 in Brooklyn that caused the death of a mother and her five children. The sole witness in the case was deemed unreliable, and advances in arson science showed that the fire was most likely an accident.
quote:
Two of the men, William Vasquez and Amaury Villalobos, spent almost 33 years each in prison on arson and murder charges. The third defendant, Raymond Mora, died in prison.
List of those freed who had been on Death Row
More Info
quote:
There’s a more rigorous way to crunch the numbers, according to Gross’s new study. And that approach leads to a false conviction rate that was high enough to make me gasp — 4.1 percent.
To be more precise: Gross and his colleagues calculated a 4.1 percent error rate among people who are sentenced to death.
I'm not anti-death penalty because I'm a hippie, or because my religion tells me I should or should not.
I'm anti-death penalty because it's a flawed system and killing people in a flawed system is wrong. I don't need Jesus to tell me that.
3
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:52 am to skrayper
I believe in an eye for an eye, but as far as a deterrent to more murders, 2 things need to change. 1) it needs to be done in the full light of day for all to see, even to the extent of a live video feed, and 2) it needs to be painful. Our civilization has become too civilized when it come to the death penalty. Next thing you know, we'll be sending them to day spas and getting their nails done.
There's a primitive, uncivilized element to it that resonates with the human psyche that needs to be publicized. Once you separate the "barbaric" element from it, it becomes ineffective. As grotesque as it sounds, it's why public executions (and other forms of corporal punishment) are so effective in other parts of the world as a deterrent to crime.
See: Singapore vs United States: Crime stats _______________ Caning in Singapore
Who remembers Gary Gilmore?
There's a primitive, uncivilized element to it that resonates with the human psyche that needs to be publicized. Once you separate the "barbaric" element from it, it becomes ineffective. As grotesque as it sounds, it's why public executions (and other forms of corporal punishment) are so effective in other parts of the world as a deterrent to crime.
See: Singapore vs United States: Crime stats _______________ Caning in Singapore
Who remembers Gary Gilmore?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:53 am to Rakim
I read the book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I don't see a problem from my end.
May he Rest In Peace with his strippers with VD, and the spoiled beer fountain. He should've lived better. He boiled for our sins. Forever and ever, Ramen.
May he Rest In Peace with his strippers with VD, and the spoiled beer fountain. He should've lived better. He boiled for our sins. Forever and ever, Ramen.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:55 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
genesis 9:6
There's a New Testament; try reading that
Posted on 4/21/17 at 7:56 am to beebefootballfan
He gone!
Posted on 4/21/17 at 8:01 am to SirWinston
So the blood lust of pro dp advocates now has advanced to the point where they are using scripture to suggest that the executioner is now the agent of God???
Wtf?
Wtf?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 8:24 am to Tuscaloosa
quote:
I do not find the death penalty at all compatible with the teachings of Jesus. One of the most uncomfortable things to me about the death penalty is that the majority of its support comes from the "Bible Belt." It simply doesn't hold up against New Testament theology, if we're going to take the Biblical route in discussing
Show me in one of the Gospels, or Acts, where Jesus instructed the guards to take the thief down who was being crucified next to Him after He forgave his sins. He didn't. He allowed the just punishment imposed by the State to go forward. Remember that whole "render unto Caesar" bit?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 8:27 am to Tuscaloosa
quote:
Do not be fooled into believing the death penalty brings some sort of magical closure or healing for the family of the victims. It only exacerbates wounds and creates a new set of victims
This is the biggest crock of shite. It's like all of you people think that the penalty system is 100% about safety and rehabilitation. It's not. There is a historic retributive purpose in our criminal system meant to substitute for the inevitable blood feuds and vigilantism that would otherwise ensue. I know relatives of murder victims who say the death penalty did make them feel better and like justice was served.
TL;DR - Get this pussy garbage out of here. No one buys this and it is not supported by history.
ETA: if families of victims get nothing from the death penalty, then why aren't they constantly interceding and asking prosecutors to seek life? Prosecutors almost always take this into consideration. After all, that is a much faster process that requires less heart rending court time.
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 8:32 am
Posted on 4/21/17 at 8:42 am to antibarner
quote:
Where is your concern for the victims?
Why don't you ask them how they feel about it?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 8:44 am to Jake88
quote:
How many innocent people have been put to death since the advent of DNA evidence?
I could be wrong, but you are implying that people don't get wrongfully convicted anymore now that DNA testing is commonplace, and thus aren't at risk of wrongful execution.
That doesn't change the fact that there are an untold number of people whose convictions predate DNA testing, and who were convicted on unreliable eyewitness testimony, pseudoscience experts, etc. It is, unfortunately, extremely difficult for people already in prison to obtain DNA testing to confirm their innocence. Most jurisdictions have no set protocols for making DNA testing available to those already convicted. That leaves overburdened advocacy groups like the Innocence Project to fight their way through appeals, which takes year and is always an uphill battle because the odds are stacked against them. Look at the West Memphis Three. They argued for DNA testing for over a decade and had to deal with every prosecutor and law enforcement official in Arkansas throwing their weight against them. It took something like ten years to obtain a testing that unequivocally confirmed their innocence in a matter of days.
I think this guy Lee was probably guilty based on what I have read, but what would be the harm in a DNA test (which he wanted) prior to execution?
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 8:46 am
Posted on 4/21/17 at 9:09 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:We let the government make laws and interpret them but not enforce them? Obviously the government, in general, is corrupt and incompetent, but administration of justice is one of it's actual purposes, unlike making sure everyone lives a life free from being offended.
I find it interesting that so many people who believe our govt is so incompetent believe that our govt will only convict and execute the guilty. These are the same people that run the DMV, IRS, TSA, etc.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:12 am to FooManChoo
quote:
but administration of justice is one of it's actual purposes
Which generally speaking I have no problem with. Say the govt convicts someone. They have an opportunity to appeal said conviction from prison, have additional evidence introduced to overturn said conviction, etc. It's much easier to free people of false charges who are alive then those killed by the state falsely.
The same govt that operates the VA, IRS, DMV, etc shouldn't be relied on to make perfect verdicts in death penalty cases.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:24 am to Tuscaloosa
quote:The only Issue with this statement is the last sentence. Christ's sacrifice took away spiritual death for sin, not physical. Christ's victory over physical death did not end physical death, but it provides hope for the Christian that we, too, will one day be raised from the dead and given new bodies that will be eternal. Physical death will be wiped out on the last day when God creates the new heaven and the new earth.
Jesus' blood was the atonement. No cleaver needed. He completed it, made it whole. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice for sin. Death as a punishment for sin was defeated through Jesus, IMO.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more...[God] will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." -Revelation 21:1,4
In the mean time, people are still sinners and therefore people will continue to physically die.
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" -Romans 5:12
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:27
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:31 am to tedmarkuson
quote:
i'm sure that extends to the life of an unborn child. amirite!
Yes. Read the thread.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:34 am to FooManChoo
If more death row inmates were executed as the law allows then people wouldn't be so namby-pamby about it when it does occur. Kinda reminds me of the abortion thing. People were aghast by the thought forty years ago of abortion but because of a constant barrage over the years of why it is okay, people adapted to the act itself and the majority of Americans now accept it as nothing out of the ordinary.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:48 am to udtiger
quote:
Show me in one of the Gospels, or Acts, where Jesus instructed the guards to take the thief down
...
You're implying they would have listened to him? The same guys that jabbed a spear in his side and strung him up on the cross would have let the other guys down with just his say so?
"Render unto Caesar" is about paying taxes. The full line is "Render unto Caesar that which is his" - referring to the fact that the money was, in fact, minted by the government and had his face on it. Unless you're implying that Jesus was telling everyone that the government owns their LIVES as well.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:49 am to skrayper
Should juries, prosecutors, officers and judges be held accountable for murder, or at least manslaughter, if an innocent person is sent to their death?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:59 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:I have no problem with a grace period between conviction and execution that allows for an appeals process. If something was missed or corruption had resulted in a wrongful conviction, there should be an opportunity to make that right. However since humans are not omniscient, we will make mistakes, and sometimes that means wrongful conviction.
Which generally speaking I have no problem with. Say the govt convicts someone. They have an opportunity to appeal said conviction from prison, have additional evidence introduced to overturn said conviction, etc. It's much easier to free people of false charges who are alive then those killed by the state falsely.
The same govt that operates the VA, IRS, DMV, etc shouldn't be relied on to make perfect verdicts in death penalty cases.
As I see it, the problem isn't necessarily with perfect vs. imperfect judgments, but the determination of what justice is. If "getting what you deserve" is justice, then someone who rapes and murders women and children deserves death, and justice can only be truly served if the killer is put to death. Anything less would not be justice.
It could be argued that prison has been turned into an entitlement system, wherein prisoners are cared for (free healthcare, medical care, entertainment/recreation, etc.) for the rest of their lives at the expensive of some of their freedoms, and such care for men and women who have wronged society hardly satisfies the demands of justice.
In regards to wrongful conviction, what of those that spend their entire lives in jail? As "good" as it is compared to dying of starvation in a 3rd world country, sitting in a cramped, confined space with risk of rape, violence, and dehumanizing treatment for 30, 40, or 60 years sounds like torture. Maybe that's why so many people advocate tossing people in jail for the rest of their lives instead of the "mercy" of putting them to death. What do you say to the man that was released after 30 years of wrongful imprisonment? "Sorry, my bad"? There's a reason why people who spend a significant amount of time in prison are unable to function in society once released. Their lives are wasted and they have little to no ability to succeed once released. In some ways, that is worse than putting someone to death, from a secular humanist standpoint, at least.
To me, we either have to allow the government to make life and death decisions or we cannot. If we can't trust them to administer justice perfectly, how can we let them do it at all?
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:59 am to skrayper
quote:
If the system was perfect, I would be okay with the Death Penalty.
So do you withhold support for all the other things that are not perfect, and cause innocent people to die also? I'm guessing you reject the medical profession altogether, right? It's not perfect, and tens of thousands of needless deaths happen every year.
Kind of an idiotic position to take, isn't it? Perfection is God's domain. Literally nothing man has ever created is perfect.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:04 am to antibarner
quote:
Where is your concern for the victims?
The Liberal mindset doesn't care about the victims family and friends they only care about the criminal. Sad
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