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Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:46 am to 90proofprofessional
quote:
sure looks that way doesn't it? it's because post-scarcity is far away
assuming we don't run out of petro, it's essentially 40-50 years away. i mean it pretty much exists now, but it's going to increase exponentially along with technology
quote:
is scarcity a problem, or is there enough to satisfy everyone's desires at a price everyone can afford?
how else could our population keep doubling while we live longer than ever and fewer people are in poverty/are starving?
of course there is a theoretical limit to what the Earth can produce, but populations will be self-regulating (wars, starvation, etc) in response. the standard of "infinite population" is ridiculous and ignores how societies/people actually work
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:47 am to TrueTiger
quote:
so no more public education and no more mandatory ER service without payment?
i'd love this to go back to more local decisions, but i'd imagine as government decreased, people would enjoy their newfound liberty and support even more. i mean the BASICS are already provided for..that's the whole point
quote:
I'm game but how will you sell it to the Rex's and Tuba's.
i'm waiting for the liberals/progressives/DEMs to comment
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:48 am to CherryGarciaMan
quote:If implemented like he wants, yeah. It'd probably just be added to all the other shite though.
IT would certainly mean less hands in the proverbial cookie jar, but that is why it will never be implemented until it is too late.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:56 am to SlowFlowPro
I don't think it would work, for the reason that the people that depend on those programs the most aren't capable of budgeting. With no section 8, no food stamps they would be out of money before they pay rent/buy food.
Yesterday I was at a Winn Dixie in New Orleans that had just added 4 self check out lanes, what a clusterfrick that was. They are expecting people that can't figure out how to fed themselves without govt assistance, to be able to work a register without assistance. I ended up leaving and going to Rouses' after about 5 minutes in line. I would have left earlier but I was intrigued by this couple repeatedly trying to scan an apple.
Yesterday I was at a Winn Dixie in New Orleans that had just added 4 self check out lanes, what a clusterfrick that was. They are expecting people that can't figure out how to fed themselves without govt assistance, to be able to work a register without assistance. I ended up leaving and going to Rouses' after about 5 minutes in line. I would have left earlier but I was intrigued by this couple repeatedly trying to scan an apple.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
assuming we don't run out of petro, it's essentially 40-50 years away. i mean it pretty much exists now, but it's going to increase exponentially along with technology
If we ever get nuclear power right, we could have it sooner.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
how else could our population keep doubling while we live longer than ever and fewer people are in poverty/are starving?
of course there is a theoretical limit to what the Earth can produce, but populations will be self-regulating (wars, starvation, etc) in response. the standard of "infinite population" is ridiculous and ignores how societies/people actually work
you're using a different definition of scarcity than the economic one, which is fine i guess. in that context, something is "scarce" if there is any constraint preventing one from simply consuming as much as they desire, which forces them to make an economic decision. if this is true, there's no need for populations to "self-regulate." that's truly post-scarcity if you ask me.
like i said your definition of scarcity is probably fine, but i don't know exactly what it is. can you give me a precise definition? depending on what you mean, i may actually agree with what you're getting at
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:58 am to TigerintheNO
You just have to distribute the money weekly vs monthly.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:59 am to TigerintheNO
quote:
I don't think it would work, for the reason that the people that depend on those programs the most aren't capable of budgeting. With no section 8, no food stamps they would be out of money before they pay rent/buy food.
i have more faith in humanity
quote:
Yesterday I was at a Winn Dixie in New Orleans that had just added 4 self check out lanes
my main grocery store is primarily urban residents, old people (of all colors), and a few yuppies
self checkout is always an adventure. half the time old people and the urban shoppers just make the single attendant check them out. at least over the past year or so they have learned that the "NO CASH" machines really do not accept cash
i have almost gotten in a couple fights telling people who cut to get at the back of the line
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:00 pm to crazy4lsu
we still need lots of petro for plastics and non-fuel products, even if all transportation and power-creation used nuclear
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
I'd also restrict the money so that it can never be used to pay debt or as collateral for credit. Only way I see it not being abused to the point other social programs ramping up.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:02 pm to 90proofprofessional
As a socialist I am against it. When someone gets sick lets say cancer and they only get the minimum income they are screwed and they will declare bankruptcy or just won't be able to pay it.
It won't' work. Seriously it won't work. In life things happen. People get pneumonia and need dialysis for a few days and spends a week in the hospital.
Someone gets breast cancer and they won't' be able to pay their bills with 15K a year.
It's a nice way to say "frick you" to the "takers". It won't' happen because the Ayn Rand wannabes won't' support it and the tea baggers won't' support it.
Face it today's conservative movement won't support it because they see people getting stuff for free.
It won't' work. Seriously it won't work. In life things happen. People get pneumonia and need dialysis for a few days and spends a week in the hospital.
Someone gets breast cancer and they won't' be able to pay their bills with 15K a year.
It's a nice way to say "frick you" to the "takers". It won't' happen because the Ayn Rand wannabes won't' support it and the tea baggers won't' support it.
Face it today's conservative movement won't support it because they see people getting stuff for free.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:04 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
Make them a ward of the state if they can't afford something awful that has happened to them. That would prevent fraud.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
I love this post, FWIW! It's right up my alley.
As for the minimum income thing....well I don't like it as a matter of philosophy, however, I begrudgingly acknowledge that it will probably be a stopgap solution while we transition to a post-scarcity society.
We will be hearing A LOT more about basic minimum income programs in the next 10 years. They will begin to be implemented in other countries before they make their way to the USA, IMO.
As for the minimum income thing....well I don't like it as a matter of philosophy, however, I begrudgingly acknowledge that it will probably be a stopgap solution while we transition to a post-scarcity society.
We will be hearing A LOT more about basic minimum income programs in the next 10 years. They will begin to be implemented in other countries before they make their way to the USA, IMO.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:06 pm to 90proofprofessional
post-scarcity: abundance of the basic needs of society (food, water, shelter, and some entertainment-leisure) to where the price of production (including human capital) is so low, that they are available to everyone.
that's probably as good as you're going to get
that's probably as good as you're going to get
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:06 pm to C
quote:
Make them a ward of the state if they can't afford something awful that has happened to them.
very interesting
it's tough, but not heartless. i do agree it'd prevent most fraud
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:07 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
As a socialist I am against it. When someone gets sick lets say cancer and they only get the minimum income they are screwed and they will declare bankruptcy or just won't be able to pay it.
they can buy insurance with their min income
quote:
People get pneumonia and need dialysis for a few days and spends a week in the hospital.
and their insurance will cover it, just like today. and at least they have a guaranteed income to fall back on as opposed to the uncertainty of losing their job and losing their income stream
quote:
Someone gets breast cancer and they won't' be able to pay their bills with 15K a year.
health insurance
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:08 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
As a socialist I am against it.
A socialist that doesn't like giving away public money?
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:08 pm to C
That would be very, very expensive to institutionalize cancer patients and people with strokes, ALS, parkinson's, the mentally ill, the very fat, etc.
There's a reason why we closed insane asylums. They were inhuman and too expensive.
There's a reason why we closed insane asylums. They were inhuman and too expensive.
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:10 pm to TrueTiger
quote:
A socialist that doesn't like giving away public money?
It won't work and it is not consistent with socialist policies. I believe that everyone should work. To whatever their ability if they are getting 15K like this plan says then they need to be put to work and organized into unions and guilds.
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