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Started By
Message
re: It's not a "False Equivalence"; it's a "False Choice/Dilemma"
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:31 pm to roadGator
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:31 pm to roadGator
quote:
When two entities are evil there's no need to rank them.
Unless i misunderstand what you mean, I disagree.
Car Thief vs Child Rapist
Both evil acts but ones objectively wayy worse than the other.
1
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:43 pm to SundayFunday
I wouldn't label a car thief as evil.
Admittedly, labeling different acts is subjective. That's why we are discussing it here in a civil manner.
I'll get you a unicorn too.
ETA:
Evil scale for you?
killing a child a 10?
stealing a car a 3?
Admittedly, labeling different acts is subjective. That's why we are discussing it here in a civil manner.
I'll get you a unicorn too.
ETA:
Evil scale for you?
killing a child a 10?
stealing a car a 3?
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 12:45 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:50 pm to roadGator
quote:
I'll get you a unicorn too.
OK now I know i missed something in this thread. quote:
Evil scale for you?
killing a child a 10?
stealing a car a 3?
I prefer a 1000 point scale including decimals. Gotta be scientific n shite, yo.
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:50 pm to roadGator
To answer your question, I think Trump is engaging in false equivalence by equating the "alt-right" with the "alt-left," both of which are loose terms and involve many factions.
The story is that a new-Nazi killed another human being, not that the alt-left is the same as the alt-right. I think it's offensive to both the right and the left.
The story is that a new-Nazi killed another human being, not that the alt-left is the same as the alt-right. I think it's offensive to both the right and the left.
Posted on 8/18/17 at 12:54 pm to cahoots
I can see your point of view. The difficult to part to filter through is your and my bias.
You loathe Trump if I'm not mistaken (real reach there I think). I don't particularly like him but want him to be successful.
We are going to see this through two different views.
However, perhaps I can see that he should have restrained from taking the bait from the press. On the other hand, I enjoy seeing them bashed upon the head even if it looks bad. In this instance, it involves a death so I can totally understand your position.
ETA: Had he just stopped though, the press would have just moved on to the next outrage issue. In the end, it doesn't really matter. The lines are dug really deep.
You loathe Trump if I'm not mistaken (real reach there I think). I don't particularly like him but want him to be successful.
We are going to see this through two different views.
However, perhaps I can see that he should have restrained from taking the bait from the press. On the other hand, I enjoy seeing them bashed upon the head even if it looks bad. In this instance, it involves a death so I can totally understand your position.
ETA: Had he just stopped though, the press would have just moved on to the next outrage issue. In the end, it doesn't really matter. The lines are dug really deep.
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:02 pm to roadGator
quote:
ETA: Had he just stopped though, the press would have just moved on to the next outrage issue. In the end, it doesn't really matter. The lines are dug really deep.
True, but this was an easy political play for Trump. He did what everyone told him not to do.
I know certain people will applaud it, but it was a sloppy attempt to challenge the militant left-wing. Wrong time, wrong words.
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
SlowFlowPro
Do you admit or deny that Trump was talking specifically about Charlottesville in his comments, and in that instance equated the counter-protestors in that city with the Nazis who were protesting?
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
Well said. I can see why you are a lawyer
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:19 pm to BamaAtl
quote:
Do you admit or deny that Trump was talking specifically about Charlottesville in his comments, and in that instance equated the counter-protestors in that city with the Nazis who were protesting?
I don't care if he was or wasn't, their actions dictated it. What you're doing is the equivalent of bitching at your neighbor because your a-hole dog climbed the neighbor's fence into the neighbor's yard and got attacked by the neighbor's a-hole dog.
Counter-protesting is just another term for "forcing a confrontation". When you show up to counter-protest someone else's event while wearing body armor and carrying weapons, don't piss and moan when violence erupts. Anyone that shows up at a counter-protest thinking the default is going to be anything less than violence is living too deeply within their privilege.
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:21 pm to cahoots
dp
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:21 pm to cahoots
quote:
To answer your question, I think Trump is engaging in false equivalence by equating the "alt-right" with the "alt-left," both of which are loose terms and involve many factions.
I hate to go with a 4D chess type argument, but perhaps that's sort of the point.
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:29 pm to Bard
quote:
their actions dictated it.
Except that they didn't, at least the counter-protestors actions didn't.
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:41 pm to SlowFlowPro
That's a damn fine disclaimer. Well done!
Posted on 8/18/17 at 1:43 pm to BamaAtl
quote:
Except that they didn't, at least the counter-protestors actions didn't.
dindunuffinsPosted on 8/18/17 at 1:59 pm to BamaAtl
quote:
Except that they didn't, at least the counter-protestors actions didn't.
If you are counter-protesting, you are there to provoke. Period. If you are armed and armored when you counter-protest you are there to provoke a fight.
ANTIFA flat out states that they show up specifically to violently shut down speech they disagree with.
Posted on 8/18/17 at 2:20 pm to cahoots
quote:
The story is that a new-Nazi killed another human being, not that the alt-left is the same as the alt-right.
ok
then why weren't all the stories about the auth-left being violent towards non-Nazis not given comparable coverage?
obviously since none have died (which is more luck than anything), it's not as bad. i admit that. but they've gotten VERY close a large number of times (and again, against NON-Nazis). where was comparable (not equal) outrage from the same people?
Posted on 8/18/17 at 2:22 pm to BamaAtl
quote:
Do you admit or deny that Trump was talking specifically about Charlottesville in his comments, and in that instance equated the counter-protestors in that city with the Nazis who were protesting?
i admit it
my thread is not about Trump. if you noticed, my question specifically ended prior to the violence last weekend
now, for the 100th time
do you admit or deny that authoritarian-left groups have attacked non-violent, non-Nazis between Jan 1, 2017 and August 10, 2017?
Posted on 8/18/17 at 2:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:"All you Trumpkins are the same"
SlowFlowPro
Posted on 8/18/17 at 2:29 pm to SlowFlowPro
also this is a real FB post to me and i think it displays the "false choice' pretty well
also, i had lunch with a guy from Romania who lived under Ceausescu. i read him that comment and he said (paraphrased), "these stupid Americans are either ignorant or stupid...or both. they have no concept of what it was like to live under Communists"
quote:
Let's try this:
I'm not calling you stupid, but your arguments are inconsistent with a demonstrable model.
Nazis don't reason, as such the only way to oppose them is on their level. The violence that occurred in Cville is a result of the line being crossed between trying to reason and refusing reason. The violence isn't the beginning of the argument, it is a result of the argument being exhausted. Decades of the argument.
So to sit there and bash on antifascist diminishes and dismisses the narrative that needs to be at the core of our focus. If you are against Nazis in this day, there is little else to discuss. We can sort the rest of the mess out after they've been dealt with.
If you disagree with this, you have nothing else to contribute to this discussion and should cease immediately.
If you agree, we can discuss means by which you can involve yourself in stopping Nazis.
Pretty easy flowchart.
also, i had lunch with a guy from Romania who lived under Ceausescu. i read him that comment and he said (paraphrased), "these stupid Americans are either ignorant or stupid...or both. they have no concept of what it was like to live under Communists"
This post was edited on 8/18/17 at 2:31 pm
Posted on 8/18/17 at 2:45 pm to cahoots
quote:
You don't use a tragedy to call out the other side's transgressions. It doesn't matter how "right" you are. It's always going to appear as though you are sympathetic to the side that killed someone.
Let's make this argument about Bloods and Crips. Let's say the Bloods are in the park doing shite that Bloods do. The Crips show up and all hell breaks loose. In the process a bystander gets killed. Do you as the mayor come out and condemn both sides for the violence or do you absolve the crips and lay all the blame on the Bloods because it was a blood who pulled the trigger?
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