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re: Defend the Position: What is the GOP's real issue with Climate Change

Posted on 10/18/17 at 10:40 pm to
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67075 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 10:40 pm to
quote:

I realize that most Republicans are supportive of defunding all of the environmental and climate initiatives of the past 20 years.


This is not true. The problem is that you come from a position based on a series of incorrect premises:
1. Global Warming is a provable dangerous phenomenon that is caused by, and can be altered by, human activity.
2. Environmental policies enacted by the U.S. over the last 20 years were done so with the intent of improving the health and safety of our natural environment.
3. That republicans are opposed to environmental protection.

All 3 are patently false.

Not only has climate change not been properly quantified thanks to inconsistent data, inaccurate models, and a lack of sample size, that cause cannot be anywhere close to attributed to man, the sun, or geothermal activity, or all of the above and in what quantities, the "97% consensus" is based on a complete fabrication that has been repeated ad-nauseum, and all of the data supporting the narrative of climate change and all of the solutions come from socialist, government, and/or quasi-government entities. The purpose of climate change legislation is not to help the environment, because there is no where near enough data to make any conclusions on environmental impact. The purpose is wealth redistribution. The idea is to tax fossil fuel consumption; the world's cheapest, most efficient, and most widely consumed fuel; and distribute that money to 3rd world governments and traders. This policy will make conducting business impossible for nearly all small and medium sized businesses, meaning only the biggest survive. In the meantime, it will tax the U.S. citizens and industry into oblivion to redistribute wealth all over the world. The replacements are always dirtier, less efficient, and more environmentally harmful outcomes. Nuclear results in radioactive waste. Solar requires lithium batteries which are insanely toxic. Ethanol requires more energy than it gives off, burns dirtier than gasoline, is less efficient than gasoline, and corrodes engines.

2. Environmental protection ceased to be the goal of the EPA a very long time ago. The real environmentalists, are mostly conservatives. They are hunters and conservationists. Environmentalists are mostly communist lawyers. Their job is to stop development by any means possible. What they do is find excuses to make developing property more expensive. Whether it is piling on increasing studies and permits, roping off areas for conservation of "species" (which are typically just sub-breeds of common species, but if they can pay one professor to say it is a distinct species, they win), etc, they get their wish by making construction of just about anything (road, dam, power plant, suburban sprawl, etc) prohibitively expensive. If the goal were environmental conservation, they would loathe and oppose windmills, which kill thousands of birds every single year. No, they only care about stopping development, increasing government power, increasing government payrolls, and getting more money in donations and legal fees. Sue and settle is the name of the game.

3. Republicans are not opposed to environmental protection. We all want clean air, clean water, and healthy forests and fields. The problem is that our government's Environmental Protection Agency has been infested by Communists and career government bureaucrats and have twisted the agency to be used as a hammer against industry. They no longer care about protecting our health. Their new regs are typically just more stringent to inflict higher costs on industry and rarely even attempt to justify them with quantifying impact. They don't even try to justify them with lives saved or animals saved.

21st century environmentalism, especially AGW, is nothing more than a scam, a front for Communism and the runaway police state.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67075 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 10:47 pm to
quote:

Did the climate change before the industrial revolution? What caused it then??


It changed constantly.

The Roman period was roughly the same temperature as today.

The Medieval Warm period was as much as 5 degrees warmer. It was so warm that grapes were grown in England and that English wines began to rival the French in notoriety. It created a massive population boom that resulted in the wide-spread settlement of eastern Europe.

The Little Ice Age followed the Medieval Warm Period and was several degrees colder than today. The Thames River completely froze solid one year as did the Hudson River in New York. In fact, it is believed that the Little Ice Age contributed to the earlier onset of winter that defeated Napoleon's invasion of Russia.

The Industrial Revolution really went into full swing in the United States just as the Little Ice Age was winding down. That period also coincided with the first temperature taking technology. The technology has changed so much since then that little of the numbers are truly reliable. It's all a complete crapshoot.
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 10:50 pm to
quote:



I realize that most Republicans are supportive of defunding all of the environmental and climate initiatives of the past 20 years.

I honestly want to know your opinion on these topics

1) Do you feel that environmental safety/Climate control is a lesser issue? If so why?

2) Do you think there is too much greed with this problem? How is this greed worse than other government endeavors (military, etc.)

3) What is the real political endgame the GOP are to reach? Is it to secure money for more pet projects?

Note: My personal theory is that weakening climate change is an attempt to give corporations more freedom with regards to health, sanitation, and disposal. A de-regulation scheme that will inevitably hurt the environment. It will benefit only the corporate donors and have a minimal economic impact on civilians.


Because they like the kickbacks and don't care that it disenfranchises poor people
This post was edited on 10/18/17 at 10:53 pm
Posted by SoulGlo
Shinin' Through
Member since Dec 2011
17248 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:00 pm to
quote:

1) Do you feel that environmental safety/Climate control is a lesser issue? If so why?


It's a ruse created for grabbing power and control.


quote:

2) Do you think there is too much greed with this problem? How is this greed worse than other government endeavors (military, etc.)


a. Why is it better than any other? All government greed is bad.

b. See answer to question 1


quote:

3) What is the real political endgame the GOP are to reach? Is it to secure money for more pet projects?


a. What money do they stand to gain by confiscating less of our money?

b. See answer to question 1




quote:

My personal theory is that weakening climate change is an attempt to give corporations more freedom with regards to health, sanitation, and disposal. A de-regulation scheme that will inevitably hurt the environment. It will benefit only the corporate donors and have a minimal economic impact on civilians.


Honest question… do you think that with the instant availability and dissemination of information, that us consumers are still incapable of regulating companies?
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:03 pm to
quote:

3. Republicans are not opposed to environmental protection. We all want clean air, clean water, and healthy forests and fields. The problem is that our government's Environmental Protection Agency has been infested by Communists and career government bureaucrats and have twisted the agency to be used as a hammer against industry. They no longer care about protecting our health. Their new regs are typically just more stringent to inflict higher costs on industry and rarely even attempt to justify them with quantifying impact. They don't even try to justify them with lives saved or animals saved.


Oh?

Trump signed an EO that said that federal officials should rely on the dissenting opinion of Scalia who argued the Clean Water Act should only apply to traditionally navigable waters (waterbodies that are large enough to use for commerce). There's truck tons of evidence showing that we can't protect these larger rivers without protecting their tributaries.

With massive republican support for something that is clearly the opposite of conservation.. sure sounds like you're full of shite Maybe "real conservatives" are pro-conservation but.. I don't see many of those around. Maybe two or three on the poliboard.
This post was edited on 10/18/17 at 11:06 pm
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37263 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:05 pm to
quote:

1. cost (and its negative effects on the economy)

2. international wealth redistribution (which liberals love to lie about)




These.

Also,

quote:

real issue with Climate Change



I don't know anyone on the Left that takes it seriously either. Recycling (which I do as well), owning a solar powered lamp for camping, and maybe an electric car is not protecting the environment in the least.

If the majority of the left took it seriously like Ed Begley Jr., then I'll believe the fervor, until then, I'm not paying attention. They don't want to actually make changes in their own lives, they only want to force changes on others.
Posted by Celery
Nuevo York
Member since Nov 2010
11086 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:07 pm to
Big Energy is in the GOP pockets. Otherwise, how is this even a left/right issue. It’s a big business issue, rather.
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:13 pm to
quote:


Honest question… do you think that with the instant availability and dissemination of information, that us consumers are still incapable of regulating companies?



Consumers are absolutely incapable of regulating environmental impact.

1) How does the consumer know pollution happening if no whistle blowers raise the alarm? You expect them to take samples themselves?
2) How does the consumer deal with small impacts that cumulatively combine into degradation/actual pollution?
3) How can the consumer follow up without access to private property?
4) Even if a business closes down they would have no obligation to restore any damage they caused.. consumer still loses even if the business loses too.
This post was edited on 10/18/17 at 11:15 pm
Posted by roux
Tiger Territory
Member since Dec 2006
1590 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:16 pm to
Climate change and pollution are not the same thing.
Posted by RobbBobb
Matt Flynn, BCS MVP
Member since Feb 2007
27898 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:31 pm to
Its just another wealth distribution scam, like OCare

create a crisis. Check

require people to fix said crisis by giving their funds to others. Check

hire 3rd party (er, donors) to oversee the transfer of wealth. Check

Except with climate change, the wealth is transferred from nation to nation, rather than person to person. That's why you hear is sooooooo horrible for Trump to be a Nationalist. Hitler like even
Posted by Jax-Tiger
Port Saint Lucie, FL
Member since Jan 2005
24740 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:45 pm to
Why is the answer to every issue always Communism, or at least a healthy dose of Socialism and government control?

It doesn't matter what the issue is. NFL players protest. What's the answer? Income equality, or income redistribution. Global warming? We can solve that with wealth redistribution. Healthcare? You guessed it.

I don't think half the so-called liberals who want these things understand what they are really fighting for. They think they are fighting against fascism, but what they are fighting for is Communism, whether they realize it, or not.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37263 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:56 pm to
quote:

Why is the answer to every issue always Communism, or at least a healthy dose of Socialism and government control?

It doesn't matter what the issue is. NFL players protest. What's the answer? Income equality, or income redistribution. Global warming? We can solve that with wealth redistribution. Healthcare? You guessed it.

I don't think half the so-called liberals who want these things understand what they are really fighting for. They think they are fighting against fascism, but what they are fighting for is Communism, whether they realize it, or not.




Like I said, if the Left ACTUALLY altered their buying habits as a group, actually made changes in their own life and sacrificed for the climate change goal, they might make grounds and create the capitalistic drive for companies to address their buying patterns.

Instead of creating it through alteration of their own lifestyle they just

quote:

It doesn't matter what the issue is. NFL players protest. What's the answer? Income equality, or income redistribution. Global warming? We can solve that with wealth redistribution. Healthcare? You guessed it.



Look to make policy changes to force everyone to agree. They preach climate change and actually do very little to support it outside of protesting and virtue signaling.

They don't truly believe it in the end.
Posted by the LSUSaint
Member since Nov 2009
15444 posts
Posted on 10/18/17 at 11:56 pm to
quote:

Climate Change


Been happening since the bargaining of time....and still will continue.

That's our position. Now frick off.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260295 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 12:03 am to
quote:

Big Energy is in the GOP pockets.


They donate to both sides.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67075 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 12:30 am to
quote:

rump signed an EO that said that federal officials should rely on the dissenting opinion of Scalia who argued the Clean Water Act should only apply to traditionally navigable waters (waterbodies that are large enough to use for commerce). There's truck tons of evidence showing that we can't protect these larger rivers without protecting their tributaries.



This is a fantastic decision. Basically, every level and organization in government had one definition for "navigable waters", but the EPA used one that was entirely different in order to institute a massive power grab. Those waters were not intended to be included by statute (hence the use of the term navigable waterways) because the federal government had no authority over them (authority over navigable waters via an extension of the commerce clause of the Constitution). The non-navigable waters belong to the state and the people. The EPA wasn't content with allowing states to regulate those smaller waterbodies, so it simply invented its own definition of "navigable waters" in order to suit its own needs, a blatant abuse and expansion of power beyond the Constitution's scope. The Trump administration merely forced the EPA to re-adopt the meaning of "navigable waters" shared by literally every other government entity, including the Army Corps of Engineers. You know, the entity actually charged with keeping navigable waters navigable.

If there is a need to regulate those smaller water-ways and tributaries, state departments of Environmental Quality are more than up to the task without needless federal overreach.

You simply have no idea what you're talking about.
This post was edited on 10/19/17 at 12:32 am
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67075 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 12:41 am to
quote:

1) How does the consumer know pollution happening if no whistle blowers raise the alarm? You expect them to take samples themselves?
2) How does the consumer deal with small impacts that cumulatively combine into degradation/actual pollution?


This is a tough issue that goes in line with the tragedy of the commons. Because no single group feels the consequences of a mass effect, no one stops it until its too late.

Environmental regulation is typically where libertarians are left scratching their heads.

The free market could handle pollution in two different ways:
1. consumers informed by advertising and independent certifying organizations choose environmentally friendly companies because they align with their beliefs (think "conflict-free" diamonds)
2. consumers harmed by pollution sue in class action under the nuisance theory.

I think both of these remedies are ok, but would fall short of fully protecting the people, hence why I am not an an-cap. The solution is at least some environmental regulation, primarily at the state level. The states have blanket police power. The federal government does not.
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98702 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 1:27 am to
Manmade climate change is either complete bullshite, or man's role is so miniscule that the proposed "solutions" are the equivalent of using a nuclear weapon to kill a housefly.
Posted by winston318
Oklahoma City,OK
Member since Sep 2009
3175 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 5:54 am to
You do realize that you asked a scientific question to a group of people who don't beleive in evolution. Conservative bible thumpers don't beleive in science so thats the way their leaders go
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
57924 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 5:58 am to
My position and I think it's shared by the GOP is that we would be willing to take common sense steps if it were proven that they would help long term issues, but we aren't willing to take job killing measures that will have little or no effect while other countries who pollute more are exempted.
Posted by AUstar
Member since Dec 2012
17017 posts
Posted on 10/19/17 at 6:12 am to
quote:

Nuclear results in radioactive waste.


Radioactive waste that is easily controlled with the Yucca mountain facility. Bury that shite several miles under ground in the desert. We built the Yucca facility and now aren't even using it. Sad.

Nuclear energy is 100% CO2 free, cheap, and almost limitless. Yes, precautions need to be taken and plants need to be built within the regulatory framework, but some of the regs are overboard and were designed to kill the industry completely.

There are better nuclear plant designs now than there were in the 50's-70's when all of our plants were built. Just ask France.
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