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Message
re: Dawkins: "immoral to bring [Down's Syndrome baby] into the world"
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:09 pm to Revelator
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:09 pm to Revelator
quote:
quote:
“If there is no God, everything is permissible.” – Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov -
This is the logical end if one believes there is no God. Survival of the fittest and the weak be damned.
I was hoping someone might take this position. Leave it to the Russian philosophers, giants really, like Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy to put this issue in context. These men lived when materialism and nationalism began wreaking havoc on the world, especially Russia. Forget 'God', is human life SACRED? SACRED like freedom of speech? What is the difference? Rationality/logic must have bounds, otherwise, taking reason to its limits like Dawkins does, the unborn soul is no different than those who have lived and died.
0
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:17 pm to son of arlo
quote:
Just as a public service announcement, let me say when you hear anybody start promulgating any idea about who is worthy to live, you'd better perk your ears up and start paying attention.
Ironically it's as anti-liberal as one coupld possibly get.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:17 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Most of us will likely feel intense suffering (physical or mental) at some point in our lives so I dont really understand where Dawkins is coming from on this one
His rationality knows no limits. He is trying to use the sunk-cost fallacy, a classical econ argument around utility and loss aversion, for a situation that involves IRRATIONAL human beings. Wrong application of this fallacy, wrong domain.
Segnius homines bona quam mala sentiunt (Cicero) - 'Men feel the good less intensely than the bad'
Posted on 8/21/14 at 3:21 pm to son of arlo
quote:
Just as a public service announcement, let me say when you hear anybody start promulgating any idea about who is worthy to live, you'd better perk your ears up and start paying attention.
People choose to abort their babies everyday. Why are people shocked when someone voices it?
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:00 pm to Revelator
quote:
People choose to abort their babies everyday.
Sadly yes, but what hope does a little skutter have when his mother wants to kill him before he's born? Slice away all the politics and morality. What chance does a baby have if its very own mother wants to shite can it?
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:05 pm to son of arlo
quote:
Sadly yes, but what hope does a little skutter have when his mother wants to kill him before he's born? Slice away all the politics and morality. What chance does a baby have if its very own mother wants to shite can it?
Zero.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:22 pm to TN Bhoy
I can understand the point of his statement but it doesn't excuse his being an a-hole.
Down Syndrome people are the most innocent human beings in this world and they can be uplifting but we can't ignore reality as they are dependent on other people to sustain an optimal quality of life as they will never be an idependent adult and some people are just not cut out to provide for that and some are.
Down Syndrome people are the most innocent human beings in this world and they can be uplifting but we can't ignore reality as they are dependent on other people to sustain an optimal quality of life as they will never be an idependent adult and some people are just not cut out to provide for that and some are.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:31 pm to Sentrius
quote:
I can understand the point of his statement but it doesn't excuse his being an a-hole.
I can't understand his point. If he's talking about someone not living a quality life, then probably more than half the kids born today are brought in this world "immorally."
I knew a few downs children and with support, their quality of life isn't bad. In fact, it may be better than some of us without the problem. Some are worse than others, for sure but Downs isn't necessarily a curse for life.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:35 pm to Sentrius
quote:
they are dependent on other people to sustain an optimal quality of life
If this ever becomes the criterion for establishing a right to exist, we are royally screwed
Posted on 8/21/14 at 6:55 pm to mattloc
@mattloc
We've been watching you closely and your quality of life is no longer optimal. Sell your belongings, give the proceeds to the state, then report to the local ovens.
Rest assured your life has not been in vain. The appropriate agency will convert your carcass into a hi-protein cattle feed supplement, which will in turn provide much needed nourishment for those in our society who are leading us to paradise.
We've been watching you closely and your quality of life is no longer optimal. Sell your belongings, give the proceeds to the state, then report to the local ovens.
Rest assured your life has not been in vain. The appropriate agency will convert your carcass into a hi-protein cattle feed supplement, which will in turn provide much needed nourishment for those in our society who are leading us to paradise.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 8:02 pm to son of arlo
Arlo .....I thought u were a nut until today....I went back and read some of your posts and saw the method to your madness. You are one of the more intelligent posters on this board ....Your useful life will be determined by the creativity and imagination of your postings as determined by peer reviews. These peers will be selected by Roger Klarvin.....may God have mercy on your soul
Posted on 8/21/14 at 8:30 pm to mattloc
The question we should be asking is why a supposedly loving god chooses to give certain children severe disabilities.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 8:38 pm to Revelator
quote:
Well I believe it is but some on here seem to be outraged that Dawkins said he would abort a Down's syndrome child but on the other hand, they are fine with a woman aborting a child just because she doesn't want it! To me, you are either outraged because you are against abortion, or you shouldn't be outraged at all. There really isn't any middle ground.
I understand your point, but I can see a distinction here. Even if you're pro-choice, the idea that someone is unfit to live simply because they're "defective" is a scary prospect.
There's also the fact that Dawkins is passing judgment on women who make a reproductive decision he doesn't like. That makes him no better than Rick Santorum.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 8:45 pm to TN Bhoy
All I can offer to this thread is the irony that I am an atheist and have an amazing, beautiful daughter with Downs that I cherish and who teaches me peace and love and happiness in quantities I can never repay her.
Dawkins knows nothing about what he is speaking of here.
Dawkins knows nothing about what he is speaking of here.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:28 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Children, in particular those with disabilities have no regard for outward distinctions, are free from hatred and jealousy and willingly thoughtful of others. These are characteristics of childhood, and true Christians. Becomeing simple and humble, as little children, and willing to be the least of all......Maybe as a reminder of these things
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:35 pm to Sentrius
quote:
Down Syndrome people are the most innocent human beings in this world and they can be uplifting but we can't ignore reality as they are dependent on other people to sustain an optimal quality of life as they will never be an idependent adult and some people are just not cut out to provide for that and some are.
Yep, and I'm not one of those people. I'm just being honest with myself, and I bet 90% of people would at least somewhat consider it, even if they're against abortion. Hell, I despise abortion, but I do see it as a necessary evil in some circumstances.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:39 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
as a necessary evil in some circumstances.
This wouldn't be one of those circumstances, OM. Trust me.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:51 pm to CollegeFBRules
quote:
This wouldn't be one of those circumstances, OM. Trust me.
What perverse soul down votes this post?
Posted on 8/21/14 at 10:08 pm to son of arlo
quote:
@mattloc.....your quality of life is no longer optimal.
Truth...lol
Posted on 8/21/14 at 10:31 pm to mattloc
Dawkins is proof that when you take God out of the equation of the bedrock foundation of our moral code and instead decide right & wrong bassed on the ever-shifting whims of men, there is no limit to the evil and depravity to which society can fall.
This post was edited on 8/21/14 at 10:33 pm
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