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Started By
Message
re: Engineers/Construction Workers?
Posted on 4/9/14 at 4:02 pm to RealityTiger
Posted on 4/9/14 at 4:02 pm to RealityTiger
quote:
As an estimator, I have to deal with engineers all the time (electrical). I'm sorry if I hurt somebody's feelings by saying all of this, but I find that most engineers I deal with are lazy. They are some of the smartest people, but the payoff to that is that they are also some of the laziest.
When releasing specifications for all the trades to follow as a guideline, they will choose some random spec section and copy/paste from a prior job. Okay, I can go with that. But here's the kicker...instead of going through each section and personalizing it to the job at hand, they just skim through and make a few minor changes. And then, you're very lucky if the information in the specifications matches with the notes on the drawings. It's gotten to the point to where all estimators have come to just expect that, as though it should be typical and normal. And my favorite part is when there's a note that says something to the effect of "even if the information is inaccurate, the contractor is responsible to fix the mistakes".
And then there's the whole "I'm afraid to talk to you" schtick that most have. Any question directed to an engineer draws most into a position of preemptive defense mode - as though a simple question is something you're trying to get them fired with. That part is equally as frustrating. Just answer the damn question and let's fix this thing together. We don't need to set up a 20 email string of CYA and pointing the finger.
In my experience of doing this for about ten years, 10% of the engineers I have dealt with have been good people, are good at what they do, and do good work. The other 90% are horse's arse who need to be in a lab somewhere with a white coat on, working alone.
You can teach what it takes to get started as an engineer at school. However, you cannot teach work ethic. That part must come from the home
just curious , how much experience do you have in the field , actually doing or overseeing the projects you are estimating ....
while I agree that you are correct on some of the points you are making I find that most engineers will work with you ......
I would say that having over 20 years experience in the same field as you I find that estimators screw up more than engineers .....
I am in no way saying you are the reasons for your issues or saying you are a bad estimator that don't know what you are doing , im just going on my own experiences , for all I know you may be great at your job because I do know some really good estimators......
1
Posted on 4/9/14 at 5:40 pm to Agforlife
quote:
As a surveyor/field engineer for 20+ years I can attest to the incompetence if the newer crop of engineers. I regularly piss them off when I change their shite so it will work when built
I have done construction layout for fifteen years and can vouch for this.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 5:49 pm to Hammertime
quote:
After going through my first three semesters of engineering at LSU, I feel comfortable saying that none of the students would be able to handle situations where they had to deal with managing people or problems.
I was just about to say the same thing about you.
Which CE 2450 section are you in, I'm in 002?
Posted on 4/9/14 at 5:51 pm to bencoleman
Then you're another dumbass that thinks college grads should somehow possess the same knowledge as someone with 15+ years experience.
Why do you think that?
Why do you think that?
Posted on 4/9/14 at 5:54 pm to LNCHBOX
Let the surveyors have their moment in the sun. They've been making half as much as engineers with twice the headaches for all of time. They should at least get to feel better about themselves in the OT lounge.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 5:54 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
Also, why didn't you get off your computer and go to the site and inspect the transformer yourself? That's if there isn't extreme travel issues in getting there.
Because it's a two hour plane flight away
?Posted on 4/9/14 at 6:00 pm to TheDiesel
quote:
Unfortunately, work ethic is not taught in school and it shows.
It's not the school's job to teach work ethic.
It's the parents. So if you, all of you, are going to blame anyone for anything blame your own fricking generation and yourselves.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 6:09 pm to HeavyCore
Well this thread kinda took-off.
Alot of people are harping on a lack of work ethic with the young engineers. This could be part of the issue, but I don't think it's the main problem.
The problem, like I mentioned, is these kids have been so droned into their Excel and their calculators they just don't have a clue what they're building/designing anymore. It seems in the past that engineers were the guys who worked as mechanics and laborers in high school and then were good enough to study a little harder in college.
Now, however, they just grab kids who are good at math and science and make them engineers. I know I used to feel (and still feel at times) wholy inept compared to some of the construction guys I work with and especially the old engineers at my company. My dad or any of the older engineers are always talking about working on their cars and rebuilding engines and blah blah blah. I consider myself decently handy for today's day and age, but I'm lost when most of those guys start talking.
As someone mentioned, they were just tinkerers. Yea they're smart, but that wasn't what defined them. Thank God my dad taught me how to do 95% of the things I know how to do, because compared to the rest of my graduating class I looked like I'd been in the industry for decades.
It will never change as eductional institutions now drive the majority of decisions young adults make, but it would be nice if there was more of an emphasis on the type of students you push towards engineering. The majority of the kids I see coming out should be math majors or chemistry or physics majors. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but engineering is about the application of these discilines not the theoretical study of them.
That kid was sweating his arse off searching through every report in our system to try to tell him if a transformer that was a hundred yards from him had been installed.
Alot of people are harping on a lack of work ethic with the young engineers. This could be part of the issue, but I don't think it's the main problem.
The problem, like I mentioned, is these kids have been so droned into their Excel and their calculators they just don't have a clue what they're building/designing anymore. It seems in the past that engineers were the guys who worked as mechanics and laborers in high school and then were good enough to study a little harder in college.
Now, however, they just grab kids who are good at math and science and make them engineers. I know I used to feel (and still feel at times) wholy inept compared to some of the construction guys I work with and especially the old engineers at my company. My dad or any of the older engineers are always talking about working on their cars and rebuilding engines and blah blah blah. I consider myself decently handy for today's day and age, but I'm lost when most of those guys start talking.
As someone mentioned, they were just tinkerers. Yea they're smart, but that wasn't what defined them. Thank God my dad taught me how to do 95% of the things I know how to do, because compared to the rest of my graduating class I looked like I'd been in the industry for decades.
It will never change as eductional institutions now drive the majority of decisions young adults make, but it would be nice if there was more of an emphasis on the type of students you push towards engineering. The majority of the kids I see coming out should be math majors or chemistry or physics majors. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but engineering is about the application of these discilines not the theoretical study of them.
That kid was sweating his arse off searching through every report in our system to try to tell him if a transformer that was a hundred yards from him had been installed.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 6:17 pm to FootballNostradamus
While I see where you are coming from and have experienced similar situations, I'm not sure age has anything to do with it. You have practical /efficient engineers and those that want to design space ships on every job. The construction industry is not a good fit for the detail oriented while the first group is, due to cost/schedules and the nature of the work. On the other hand technology advancements have made us all lazier people to some degree.
This post was edited on 4/9/14 at 6:18 pm
Posted on 4/9/14 at 6:32 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Then you're another dumbass that thinks college grads should somehow possess the same knowledge as someone with 15+ years experience
No dude I stated earlier that there is no substitute for field experience and every engineer should spend at least a year in the field getting their hands dirty. I know what works in the field and what doesn't and you have the nerve to call me dumbass. The fact is they don't know and wont listen, so what do you do? You do what you have to do and move on. I am sorry that the truth offends you so.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 6:45 pm to junkfunky
quote:I switched to UNO, so you won't be seeing me in class
Which CE 2450 section are you in, I'm in 002?
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:05 pm to FootballNostradamus
quote:
The problem, like I mentioned, is these kids have been so droned into their Excel and their calculators they just don't have a clue what they're building/designing anymore. It seems in the past that engineers were the guys who worked as mechanics and laborers in high school and then were good enough to study a little harder in college.
Engineering school will supply you with the fundamental knowledge, but you learn how to work by having an actual job. Many graduate from college today without ever having had a full time job.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:17 pm to Sleazy E
quote:
think degrees are basically being given out these days. I've met EEs who don't know what a circuit breaker is
because EEs in school are busy learning about algorigthms, transistors, signal processing to worry about that crap.
that is what the electricians are for
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:18 pm to bencoleman
Good job on completely missing the point of what I said.
I'll spell it out slower since you aren't getting it. A new grad or a grad with one year field experience will never know what you know. I bet they'd listen more if you were willing to teach. You strike me as one of those guys that resents the new hires and won't help.
I'll spell it out slower since you aren't getting it. A new grad or a grad with one year field experience will never know what you know. I bet they'd listen more if you were willing to teach. You strike me as one of those guys that resents the new hires and won't help.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:28 pm to FootballNostradamus
Don't blame me just because you lack the skill level and ingenuity to execute my creative visions.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:31 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
I'll spell it out slower since you aren't getting it. A new grad or a grad with one year field experience will never know what you know. I bet they'd listen more if you were willing to teach. You strike me as one of those guys that resents the new hires and won't help
If you want someone to acknowledge and respond to a particular point maybe you shouldn't call them a dumbass in the first sentence. I don't resent any new hires and have always helped those who want to learn. In fact I have put out more Party chiefs/surveyors/field engineers than anyone I know, the only thing that slows them down is their ability to soak up information.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:35 pm to bencoleman
Read the quote you vouched for when I first responded to you. You make it sound like new hires should possess the knowledge someone with 15+ years has. Or am I misunderstanding you?
Posted on 4/9/14 at 7:38 pm to tigerswin03
Been an estimator for a few years......can agree that we mess up more than most, i know i do....although not as much the last couple years.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 8:07 pm to LNCHBOX
No but just a little common sense would help, such as not designing something where #11 rebar had to occupy the same space as five ft anchor bolts, or maybe the seawall in the lower ninth ward having to be redesigned on the fly by a dumbass field engineer while racing against the clock due to unworkable plans. I am not picking on new engineers its just the way it is. Show a little humility and I promise the help is there.
Posted on 4/9/14 at 8:12 pm to bencoleman
well this thread looks fun...
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