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re: .
Posted on 11/1/11 at 10:58 am to lsu480
Posted on 11/1/11 at 10:58 am to lsu480
quote:
What does that have anything to do with football?
From a practical standpoint, a lot. If you are running an NFL franchise, it's going to be a helluva lot easier to hand the keys to a hundred million dollar business, at least 5 years of your team's well-being and a ton of money to someone with a track record of making good decisions.
1
Posted on 11/1/11 at 10:58 am to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
This would be a good question. If you could have Andrew Luck or Cam for the next 10 years, who would you want?
Saying you could pick either one for the long term, which one do you want?
We've seen Cam have some measure of success in the NFL. There is still a slight chance that Luck won't have any success in the NFL.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 11:05 am to Sophandros
quote:
He's having a rookie season comparable to Dan Marino. He came into a shortened workout situation, learned an offense, took over a starting job and has propelled an offense to the top 5 that failed to score more than 2 TDs in a single game last year.
Have you watched Cam? I have no idea how anyone can honestly believe that, especially given the comparative talent levels both stepped into when they joined the league
Which of these is the better line?
7-2 20 TD 6 INT; 2,210 YDS passing, 2 RTD, 5 FUM
2-6 11 TD 9 INT, 2,393 YDS passing, 5 RTD, 4 FUM
Marino did it better, won more, turned the ball over less, and did it without the luxury of multiple All Pro quality skill position players in his offense from day one.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:06 pm to BoardReader
quote:
From a practical standpoint, a lot. If you are running an NFL franchise, it's going to be a helluva lot easier to hand the keys to a hundred million dollar business, at least 5 years of your team's well-being and a ton of money to someone with a track record of making good decisions.
Well now you are talking about character, not intelligence.
The OP used that to quantify intelligence.
These are two different things.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:14 pm to BoardReader
quote:
Have you watched Cam?
What sport does he play?
I don't even understand this question or why it's being asked.
quote:
Which of these is the better line?
7-2 20 TD 6 INT; 2,210 YDS passing, 2 RTD, 5 FUM
2-6 11 TD 9 INT, 2,393 YDS passing, 5 RTD, 4 FUM
First of all, you are comparing Marino's stats from 11 games to Newton's from 8.
Secondly, when you consider that Marino walked in a situation with a very good team, the numbers are further skewed.
Cam took over for a team that didn't score more than 2 TDs in a single game last year. They are now an offense that is top 5 in yardage and top 10 in scoring.
Cam's completion percentage is better, his Y/A, AY/A, Y/C, YPG, are all better.
Marino threw more TDs, yes, and turned it over less.
So yes, I do think they are quite comparable for two rookie seasons.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:33 pm to OBUDan
I'll dissect this point by point.
287 to 296 attempts. Extremely comparable. They've each had the burden of throwing the ball placed upon them equally. Marino wasn't piling up his numbers based on expanded opportunity.
Cam's playing on a team that has huge skill position talent. Much much better than Miami had
And he's won a whopping 2 games, against the mighty Jaguars and Redskins. He's managed to lose games against NFL stalwarts like 2-5 Minnesota and 1-6 Arizona. To say he's underwhelming in this regard is an understatement.
More touchdowns, more wins, fewer turnovers. You even cite numbers as being better for Cam that aren't (AY/A), to enhance your case.
I haven't even touched on the inferior Newton passer rating, because the formula is not all that it could be-- but yet another thing that should not be overlooked is the sack rates-- immobile, NFL Statue given-life Marino was sacked 10 times to Newton's 10.
The idea that Cam is on the same level is laughable.
quote:
First of all, you are comparing Marino's stats from 11 games to Newton's from 8.
287 to 296 attempts. Extremely comparable. They've each had the burden of throwing the ball placed upon them equally. Marino wasn't piling up his numbers based on expanded opportunity.
quote:
Secondly, when you consider that Marino walked in a situation with a very good team, the numbers are further skewed.
Cam's playing on a team that has huge skill position talent. Much much better than Miami had
quote:
Cam took over for a team that didn't score more than 2 TDs in a single game last year. They are now an offense that is top 5 in yardage and top 10 in scoring. Cam's completion percentage is better, his Y/A, AY/A, Y/C, YPG, are all better. Marino threw more TDs, yes, and turned it over less. So yes, I do think they are quite comparable for two rookie seasons.
And he's won a whopping 2 games, against the mighty Jaguars and Redskins. He's managed to lose games against NFL stalwarts like 2-5 Minnesota and 1-6 Arizona. To say he's underwhelming in this regard is an understatement.
More touchdowns, more wins, fewer turnovers. You even cite numbers as being better for Cam that aren't (AY/A), to enhance your case.
I haven't even touched on the inferior Newton passer rating, because the formula is not all that it could be-- but yet another thing that should not be overlooked is the sack rates-- immobile, NFL Statue given-life Marino was sacked 10 times to Newton's 10.
The idea that Cam is on the same level is laughable.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:35 pm to DelU249
quote:
hey see best QB prospect since John elway (who wasn't even the best QB in his draft)
Elway went #1 overall. He was the best prospect that year by far and one of the best QB prospects to come out of college.
Now if you to argue he didn't turn out to be the best QB in that draft, then that is for another day.
Maybe you dont know what "QB prospect" means which would make this whole thread very funny.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:37 pm to DelU249
quote:
I think everyone else sees it as Luck>>>>>>>>>>>Newton
This is just hyperbole, don't let that confuse you, its an unfortunate by product of our current 24/7 media cycle.
quote:
see best QB prospect since John elway
Here is where you are having a disconnect. A prospect is how someone projects to the next level. That's not the same as evaluating them once they have been playing on the next level/
You are also still looking at it as a zero sum game which is wrong. Saying Luck is a better prospect, even a much better prospect than Newton is not a slam on Newton and it certainly does not mean Newton can't be great, as good or even better as a pro than Luck. A lot of things go into determining who has a better career. Luck is clearly a better prospect. If he had come out last year, 32 out of 32 teams would have taken him over Newton. Don't confuse process with outcome. Luck is proablly the best prospect since Manning. Look at it this way, the dude that get silver in the Olympic 100M is still really, really fast. He's just wasn't as fast as the guy that won gold. Or being a better prospect could just mean he's less likely to bust.
quote:
(who wasn't even the best QB in his draft)[/
That's certainly debatable, but hindsight is always 20/20. Elway was the prototype QB. Right height/weight, strong arm, not just to thrown far, but to have enough zip to make the mid level throw without floating them. He was also mobile and could avouid the rush, which Marino could not.
This post was edited on 11/1/11 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:40 pm to BoardReader
quote:
Marino did it better, won more, turned the ball over less, and did it without the luxury of multiple All Pro quality skill position players in his offense from day one.
Dan Marino was drafted by a team that was in the Super Bowl the year before with David freaking Woodley at QB.
Cam Newton was drafted by a team that went 2-14.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:44 pm to BoardReader
quote:
Cam's playing on a team that has huge skill position talent. Much much better than Miami had
is this a serious fricking comment? Really? You are saying a team that went 2-14 has better talent than one that went to the fricking Super Bowl the year before? Also did it occur to you that Miami could have added talented skill position players to the roster along with Marinio?
Steve Smith is a great rec, other than that Carolina does not "huge" skill position talent. Williams/Stewart are good, but not exactly Sanders and Smith and they haven't done much for at least a year and half now.
This post was edited on 11/1/11 at 12:48 pm
Posted on 11/1/11 at 12:58 pm to DelU249
Luck does a real good job going from that 1st read on down to the 3rd read
When flushed from the pocket is passes are accurate and right on target
Reminds me a lot of Matt Ryan
When flushed from the pocket is passes are accurate and right on target
Reminds me a lot of Matt Ryan
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:01 pm to H-Town Tiger
this whole thread aside, I will never understand anyone saying that elway was the better qb, the better prospect yes, but marino is still the golden standard for me and his 84 season still ranks up there for me as one for the ages
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:03 pm to DelU249
Luck is technically more ready to take on the role of starting qb in the NFL.
With that sais Cam is serving up crow on a weekly basis. Cam will polish up the things Luck is already doing well, but Luck won't be able to learn some of the things Cam can do because Cam is just a athletically gifted.
Luck will be a good one, but so will Cam if not better.
With that sais Cam is serving up crow on a weekly basis. Cam will polish up the things Luck is already doing well, but Luck won't be able to learn some of the things Cam can do because Cam is just a athletically gifted.
Luck will be a good one, but so will Cam if not better.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:08 pm to BoardReader
quote:
287 to 296 attempts. Extremely comparable. They've each had the burden of throwing the ball placed upon them equally. Marino wasn't piling up his numbers based on expanded opportunity.
Fair enough. Still Cam's numbers compare favorably.
quote:
Cam's playing on a team that has huge skill position talent. Much much better than Miami had
He's got 1 great WR and 2 decent TEs. I wouldn't say "huge skill position" talent.
Regardless of skill position talent, Marino played on a vastly superior team that won their division the year before he showed up.
quote:
And he's won a whopping 2 games, against the mighty Jaguars and Redskins. He's managed to lose games against NFL stalwarts like 2-5 Minnesota and 1-6 Arizona. To say he's underwhelming in this regard is an understatement.
Wins are a team accomplishment. If you really think Cam is the reason his team is losing games, well, I don't know what to tell you.
He can't help it when he drives 65 yards in 2 minutes and Olindo Mare misses a chip shot to send it to OT.
quote:
More touchdowns, more wins, fewer turnovers. You even cite numbers as being better for Cam that aren't (AY/A), to enhance your case.
Sorry Marino's is .2 better. Cam has him in all the other rate stats...
quote:
but yet another thing that should not be overlooked is the sack rates-- immobile, NFL Statue given-life Marino was sacked 10 times to Newton's 10.
Marino has one of the quickest releases of all time, that's no secret. But, I'd wager that more than a couple of Cam's 10 sacks come from him trying to extend plays and make big things happen. Their styles of play are so different, it's pointless to try and compare something silly like sacks IMO... especially something that, while can be influenced by the QB, has so many other factors to it.
How many sacks has Cam avoided due to his mobility? Why don't you want to talk about his 300 yards rushing, or that he's accounted for 500 more yards of offense than Marino?
quote:
The idea that Cam is on the same level is laughable.
Why are you refusing to give Cam his due, is my question?
I'm assuming you grew up with Marino, and think he's the greatest QB ever. Okay, that's fine, I don't think that's offbase. But that doesn't mean his numbers are sacred and can't be touched.
At the end of the year, Cam is going to have 4,000 yards passing, 500+ rushing yards and have accounted for around 40 TDs. That's an amazing season for anyone... much less a rookie who supposedly "couldn't throw."
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:32 pm to OBUDan
Panthers defense blows.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:43 pm to TTsTowel
quote:
Without Cam, the Panthers are 0-8 and well on their way to another #1 draft pick in next years NFL draft.
Didn't he also fumble the ball (TWICE) which led to 2 TDs, in a game they lost by 3 points?
Not Elite !!
quote:
e·lite [ih-leet, ey-leet]
noun
the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
If anyone had their CHOICE, Cam would not be top 4 (which is more than 10%). Manningx2, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roesthlisberger
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:44 pm to TIsuGGER
quote:
If anyone had their CHOICE, Cam would not be top 4 (which is more than 10%). Manningx2, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roesthlisberger
No one has said this, but I'd take Cam over Big and Eli.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:49 pm to DelU249
Andrew Luck, barring major injury, will be one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL, all time, when all is said and done.... he has the size, smarts, speed, and drive to be one of the best from day one... think Peyton Manning, with Archie's legs...
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:55 pm to OBUDan
quote:
He can't help it when he drives 65 yards in 2 minutes and Olindo Mare misses a chip shot to send it to OT.
Nah, I am pretty sure that was Jared Allen giving Olindo Mare a death threat.
On a more serious note, Cam's numbers are terrific, but he does have the slight benefit of playing more catchup football than most. Defenses are more concerned with not giving up the big play (which they do anyway - a testament to Cam and Steve Smith) than absolutely locking down on every inch gained. Plus, the Panthers barely run the ball. Does it make Cam a better or worse QB? No. However, it does benefit him in most frequency stats compared to the majority of the NFL. On the other hand, Cam is looking pretty solid as far as rate stats go, especially for a rookie with a shortened off-season and all the other hoopla. He is playing absolutely terrific, and he is helping to make his team competitive.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 1:57 pm to chRxis
That is an interesting opinion. A "Manning hybrid", so where does Eli come in, does Luck have Peytons football IQ, Archies legs, and Eli's hair-do??
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