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3
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:20 pm to The Sad Banana
quote:
Tony LaRussa would hit the pitcher 8th occasionally, too.
Yep, I remember this.
I just think statistically speaking, you want your pitcher hitting as little as you can. That would be the 9th spot.
Maybe I am missing something, though.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:20 pm to The Sad Banana
The reason you do it IMO is to have double leadoff guys and you hardly ever see the leadoff guy start an inning.
I like the idea of hitting the P 8th.
I like the idea of hitting the P 8th.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:21 pm to UNO
there was alos something about not doing it when he expects his pitcher to go deep in the game, so not likely for lester/arrieta starts, but for someone who isn't as reliable to go deep he'd want them 8th to give better options (upon pinch hitting) for better hitters back to back before reaching the top of the lineup presumably in the middle innings.
I'm all for trying anything, but the crotchety old man in me says bat 'em 9th.
I'm all for trying anything, but the crotchety old man in me says bat 'em 9th.
This post was edited on 3/30/15 at 12:25 pm
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:21 pm to UNO
the thinking is having the 9th guy be a 2nd leadoff, setting the table for the middle of the lineup
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:22 pm to sms151t
quote:
The reason you do it IMO is to have double leadoff guys and you hardly ever see the leadoff guy start an inning.
Certainly a pro.
But I think there are obvious cons, too.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:23 pm to sms151t
quote:
I don't think he can be called up until May 12th if they want to keep the extra year.
Huh? No.
April 17 is 12 days into the season that is required for not completing a full year of service by the CBA, thus giving the extra year of control.
You could be thinking super 2 but that's different and also in june (i think).
This post was edited on 3/30/15 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:23 pm to UNO
quote:I think it makes some sense.
I don't see how hitting the pitcher anything but 9th is a good option.
You want to maximize the at-bats your real hitters get, and also get the maximum amount of innings you can get out of your pitcher. Hitting him higher in the lineup increases the chances that you'll have to pinch hit for him.
I don't know exactly what matchups that he is referring to, but I'm assuming this would be extremely rare.
Playing it very simple, if you assume the game will end on the pitcher’s AB once every 9 games, that’s 18 extra ABs your pitcher will get in a season where the game would end at the 8th batter. Probably the majority of those would end up being a pinch hitter as opposed to the pitcher, so it wouldn’t really be 18 extra ABs for the pitcher. My math could be some kind of fuzzy, but I’m thinking you can get the overriding point I’m making.
Then you factor in having more competent 9 hole hitters hitting in front of some of your higher OBP guys in the 1/2/3 slot, I think there’s at least an argument to be made for it.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:25 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
the thinking is having the 9th guy be a 2nd leadoff, setting the table for the middle of the lineup
Yep! I know the idea of having the two leadoff guys. I've heard the idea tossed around before for the exact reason you named.
However, there are scenarios it can surely backfire, as well.
Down 2-1 in the 5th, your pitcher (not your ace) is throwing well, but his spot (8th) is due up with 2 runners in scoring position. Seems like you would have to pull him out.
Obviously, there are a lot of variables in play. Such as how rested your bullpen is and all that.
ETA: Of course, the exact same scenario can play out when your pitcher is hitting 9th. But statistically, the pitcher would get more at-bats when he hits 8th, making this more likely, unless I am wrong.
This post was edited on 3/30/15 at 12:27 pm
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:27 pm to UNO
quote:
Down 2-1 in the 5th, your pitcher (not your ace) is throwing well, but his spot (8th) is due up with 2 runners in scoring position
If he's pitching well i doubt you start chasing runs that early. Who knows. I'm not fully on board with it, though. But I'm also not totally against it.
I don't know...but my gut says maybe.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:27 pm to UNO
quote:
Down 2-1 in the 5th, your pitcher (not your ace) is throwing well, but his spot (8th) is due up with 2 runners in scoring position.
Let him hit.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:27 pm to reddman
Well this is just preposterous, shocking, amazing, I CAN NOT BELIEVE IT!!
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:28 pm to reddman
let him hit definitely. your 8th hole hitter in the NL isnt that good anyway. You generally have a pinch hitter(s) better than him on hte bench
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:29 pm to Lester Earl
I know, that was a very broad example. It could be an inning later, down 3-1 instead.
But whatever, my point is that it could obviously backfire at times, too.
But whatever, my point is that it could obviously backfire at times, too.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:29 pm to UNO
Advanced stats say having the pitcher bat 8th leads to an increase of 2 runs over the course of the season. Strictly due to having more guys on-base for your top hitters.
Not much of a difference.
Maddon is one of the most sabermetric savvy managers in the game. I assume he's using data to justify his decisions.
Not much of a difference.
Maddon is one of the most sabermetric savvy managers in the game. I assume he's using data to justify his decisions.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:33 pm to Lester Earl
There are definitely a handful of pitchers out there that can hit as well as the average NL 8-hole hitter.
If that 8-hole hitter sucks though, is it worth anything to flip him and pitcher? Maybe if you're talking a guy like Adam Everett who is worth several runs over the season due to his defense.
If that 8-hole hitter sucks though, is it worth anything to flip him and pitcher? Maybe if you're talking a guy like Adam Everett who is worth several runs over the season due to his defense.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:34 pm to Toula
I was watching a game recently when they were discussing how Joe Maddon might pinch hit Travis Wood in the regular season because he can handle the bat well (besides the fact that he can hit a dinger or rope a double, he can also bunt and is very athletic on the basepaths). Then, Travis Wood pinch hit in the game and hit a dong.
I loled heartedly.
I loled heartedly.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:35 pm to UNO
quote:
I just think statistically speaking, you want your pitcher hitting as little as you can. That would be the 9th spot.
Maybe I am missing something, though.
Basically, you can move your traditional 3-4-5, your best hitters/sluggers, up to 2-3-4, giving each 15-20 more ABs over the course of a year.
Think of the lineup as a circle instead of a line. You want your best and worst hitters opposite each other, but you also want to give your best hitters the most chances. I remember seeing a study years ago that said your worst hitter should hit as high as 6th.
Your pitcher probably won't get more (meaningful) ABs, just get lifted sooner on occasion. So, it works better at home, when he would have already pitched in the top half.
I am a fan of the strategy, depending on your personnel.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:37 pm to Speedy G
quote:
So, it works better at home
Very true!
quote:
I am a fan of the strategy, depending on your personnel.
Of course. I am not too familiar with the Cubs' personnel. I could see Maddon doing it on occasion, but I'm assuming it won't be a normal thing.
Posted on 3/30/15 at 12:39 pm to The Sad Banana
quote:
I was watching a game recently when they were discussing how Joe Maddon might pinch hit Travis Wood in the regular season because he can handle the bat well (besides the fact that he can hit a dinger or rope a double, he can also bunt and is very athletic on the basepaths). Then, Travis Wood pinch hit in the game and hit a dong.
I loled heartedly.
yea that was the espn game, right...when curt shilling wouldn't shut his cocksucker about bryant needing to start in the majors (i really do hate that guy).
The only part i liked about that idea is that joe actaully (not in that broadcast) but previously, so that's why they were talking about it, indicated it would then allow him even more positional flexibility because he could get really creative with wood's usage including pitching and playing a position (not pitcher) in the same half inning. Because while wood can crank a home run and is a good hitting pitcher, he still sucks by comparison to a true positional player.
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