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re: Which country wins a World Cup next...USA or England?
Posted on 8/5/15 at 7:05 am to Pecker
Posted on 8/5/15 at 7:05 am to Pecker
quote:
Soccer-dominated countries might not be trotting out Calvin Johnson, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook, but their best players are often their best athletes in terms of speed, endurance, coordination, and agility.
This is just patently false.
1
Posted on 8/5/15 at 1:45 pm to cwil177
quote:
Even if our "best" athletes played soccer, they wouldn't have the requisite skill to compete with the best in the sport. That's the point. All the athleticism nonsense doesn't make a lick of a difference until we can develop more technical players.
No, the point is if more of our best athletes were involved in soccer from an early age and the game was the most popular sport (as it is everywhere else), more of the resources needed to develop those talents would be devoted towards soccer. It's not just that our best athletes are in other sports, it's all the other little things that come into play. Our best sporting minds (coaches, trainers, front-office type personnel, etc) aren't involved in soccer either. So basically, we just need the game to continue to gain popularity over the next few years/decades in order to see some of these changes take place. And it seems to be moving in that direction.
quote:
But no one in the world produces skilled super-athletes like the US.
quote:
What?
You're joking, right?
Sure, every country in the world has super-skilled athletes. But in terms of sheer numbers, it seems pretty obvious to me that we have wayyy more than the rest of the world.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 1:48 pm to TN Bhoy
quote:
Soccer-dominated countries might not be trotting out Calvin Johnson, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook, but their best players are often their best athletes in terms of speed, endurance, coordination, and agility.
quote:
This is just patently false.
Then what sports are they involved in? And please don't say cricket or rugby.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 2:33 pm to mynamebowl
quote:
No, the point is if more of our best athletes were involved in soccer from an early age and the game was the most popular sport (as it is everywhere else), more of the resources needed to develop those talents would be devoted towards soccer. It's not just that our best athletes are in other sports, it's all the other little things that come into play. Our best sporting minds (coaches, trainers, front-office type personnel, etc) aren't involved in soccer either. So basically, we just need the game to continue to gain popularity over the next few years/decades in order to see some of these changes take place. And it seems to be moving in that direction.
The best athletes in a lot of European countries don't play soccer all the time.
Educate yourself before posting this shite.
In places like England or France they play rugby.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 2:36 pm to mynamebowl
quote:
Then what sports are they involved in? And please don't say cricket or rugby.
Rugby, cricket, handball, tennis and now basketball.
Soccer might be the biggest sport but in Europe they determine at an early age who is cut out for the sport and who is not. Lots of times they better athletes don't make the grade.
If you played soccer you would also understand this.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 5:56 pm to mynamebowl
quote:
Soccer-dominated countries might not be trotting out Calvin Johnson, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook, but their best players are often their best athletes in terms of speed, endurance, coordination, and agility.
quote:
This is just patently false.
quote:
Then what sports are they involved in? And please don't say cricket or rugby.
I think this is being misunderstood a bit.
First I think mynamebowl is right in saying that more of best athletes in most countries are much more likely to have tried to "make it" as soccer players.
However, and this is the point DoreonthePlains made so well on the previous page and many others have pointed out as well:
Isn't it perhaps telling that even though more of the best athletes in those countries have tried make it as professional soccer stars, they really didn't in very high percentages. The biggest superstars of the teams that win World Cups are more often than not "athletes" the caliber of Pirlo, Totti, De Rossi, Nesta and the best athletes even a soccer mad country like Italy has more often still end up as Olympians, skiers, rugby players, cyclists or even basketball players.
To me, it points to the fact that every other factor pales mightily in comparison to development of skills (in terms of kids trying to imitate a Totti backheel almost before they can walk to the actual coaching they get as youth and teens) and that great soccer players really come in more shapes and sizes physically than many American sports fans are used to.
This post was edited on 8/5/15 at 6:24 pm
Posted on 8/5/15 at 8:08 pm to wm72
quote:
Are American athletes really that much more impressive than Brazilian or Colombian or French African etc etc?
i mean look at pretty much everything other than soccer, including the olympics. you can go from niche/freak sports like basketball to the most basic/classic sports like sprinting and we dominate those countries. there are some specialist countries like jamaica that may be better in us in 1-2 events, but no country comes close to the overall athletic product that we produce.
quote:
What the USA does have is a huge population so I'm sure we have countless 5'5" guys that had more "coordination" than elite NBA or NFL superstars as youngsters but wound up being accountants or electricians because they were 5'5" when one may have won a Balon d'Or if they grew up in Argentina or Italy.
that's the whole thing...and you can increase that 5-5 and jump to the 6-foot range. we "waste" a TON of top-tier athletic talent with guys playing CB or PG for lower-level schools. keep our top athletes playing our top sports and just focusing on that grouping of guys playing soccer and you get a massive pool of athletes. the law of averages says that some will develop into top-level guys. and once you get to the 6-0 range, you've got potential talent at every position on the field in soccer, from CB to wingback to ST
Posted on 8/5/15 at 8:11 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
As much as I hate wondo you do realize he was a fricking track star.
at what point in his life? what were his stats? what event?
this looks like he was a distance runner
a. not shocking for a soccer player
b. this has no applicability to the argument, which revolves around strength/speed and explosive movements, not aerobic stuff
Posted on 8/5/15 at 8:21 pm to wm72
quote:
To me, it points to the fact that every other factor pales mightily in comparison to development of skills (in terms of kids trying to imitate a Totti backheel almost before they can walk to the actual coaching they get as youth and teens) and that great soccer players really come in more shapes and sizes physically than many American sports fans are used to.
nothing about this is wrong
however, if you have the exact same players and one is more explosive, then he will perform at a higher level
no matter what sort of athletic pool is presented, we have to develop a certain level of skill to become elite
filling the pool of potential guys to develop with higher physical talent is better than filling the pool of potential players with lesser talent. think about a CB like silva. his coordination, vison, reading of the game, etc isn't much different than a john terry. does his athleticism give him a supreme advantage as a player over terry (and every other CB)? yes.
and there are some positions that are obviously amplified with physical superiority. winger, wingback, and striker are the 3 obvious positions. what happens when you get a totti with supreme strength, speed, quickness, and explosiveness? you get brazillian ronaldo. that athleticism gives him an advantage.
now, a more poignant question is at what point can athleticism help mask a slight deficiency in skill? it would kill you if it happened at every position, but you could construct a team around that advantage to mask slight issues with skill i think.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 8:45 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
now, a more poignant question is at what point can athleticism help mask a slight deficiency in skill?
One of the best examples of this would be Theo Walcott. Hell for years I remember Walcott would get into good positions only for his technique to let him down, either by dribbling out of bounds or overhitting crosses. Yet his technical skills have progressed significantly enough that he can control difficult aerial balls and produce a consistent final product. In a team where basically every player wants the ball at their feet facing the game head on, Walcott's lack of dribbling ability is advantageous because he seeks space and extends the play rather than coming back to the ball. He's actually very good at creating separation with his marker and finding space for himself as well as timing his runs.
Posted on 8/5/15 at 8:51 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
The best athletes in a lot of European countries don't play soccer all the time.
People don´t understand that it is an all pervasive sport, and all have some modicum of dominion, but the elite socioeconomic classes tend to avoid it like the plague (with some exceptions).
Ah, and what SCH said..... Handball is a big fricking deal (as is volleyball).
This post was edited on 8/5/15 at 8:55 pm
Posted on 8/6/15 at 4:38 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
The best athletes in a lot of European countries don't play soccer all the time.
Educate yourself before posting this shite.
In places like England or France they play rugby.
Give me a fricking break dude. England or France or any other top notch soccer nation's best athletes, generally speaking, are playing soccer. Best athlete doesn't necessarily mean a 6'3 fast, strong freak of nature. Skill, technique, and the ability to develop those traits are qualities that the best athletes have.
quote:
If you played soccer you would also understand this.
You just rendered your entire argument moot with this bullshite.
Posted on 8/6/15 at 5:21 am to mynamebowl
quote:
Give me a fricking break dude. England or France or any other top notch soccer nation's best athletes, generally speaking, are playing soccer. Best athlete doesn't necessarily mean a 6'3 fast, strong freak of nature. Skill, technique, and the ability to develop those traits are qualities that the best athletes have.
You just don't get it. Educate yourself on the region before just spitting nonsense. You have people on here who have lived abroad or traveled extensively saying the opposite of what you are. The best athletes are not always playing soccer in soccer mad countries.
quote:how so
You just rendered your entire argument moot with this bullshite.
soccer players understand what it takes to make good soccer players
This post was edited on 8/6/15 at 5:32 am
Posted on 8/6/15 at 3:19 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
You just don't get it. Educate yourself on the region before just spitting nonsense. You have people on here who have lived abroad or traveled extensively saying the opposite of what you are. The best athletes are not always playing soccer in soccer mad countries.
Whatever man. You can live abroad and travel as much as you want and still be a dumbass. I can't win this argument and I'm tired of responding to you. You're naive and uninformed when it comes to American sports. You're just way too big of a soccer douche to even have a conversation about this. The little man complex is as clear as day with you dude. I'm sorry that other people didn't love the sport you love as much as you did growing up. At least you're not the only around here with this complex, so there's that. And you have a message board to spread you're uninformed bullshite with other idiots and I'm sure that makes you happy.
quote:
soccer players understand what it takes to make good soccer players
Maybe in other places around the world. Not in America. For the most part, you're a bunch of angry little twats who weren't good enough or cool enough to play football, baseball, or basketball.
Posted on 8/6/15 at 3:31 pm to mynamebowl
quote:
Whatever man. You can live abroad and travel as much as you want and still be a dumbass.
yes broadening my horizons and educating myself makes me a dumbass.
quote:
I can't win this argument and I'm tired of responding to you
bc you are wrong
quote:
You're naive and uninformed when it comes to American sports.
what in the frick. I lived in the states for 27 of my 30 years of life . Went to a university with big time college sports and played soccer at a high level for many years.
quote:
You're just way too big of a soccer douche to even have a conversation about this. The little man complex is as clear as day with you dude. I'm sorry that other people didn't love the sport you love as much as you did growing up. At least you're not the only around here with this complex, so there's that. And you have a message board to spread you're uninformed bullshite with other idiots and I'm sure that makes you happy.
this keeps getting better
quote:
Maybe in other places around the world. Not in America. For the most part, you're a bunch of angry little twats who weren't good enough or cool enough to play football, baseball, or basketball.
dude im athletic as frick i deadlifted 435 today at 170 body weight
:subtlebrag:
Posted on 8/6/15 at 4:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
nothing about this is wrong
however, if you have the exact same players and one is more explosive, then he will perform at a higher level
no matter what sort of athletic pool is presented, we have to develop a certain level of skill to become elite
filling the pool of potential guys to develop with higher physical talent is better than filling the pool of potential players with lesser talent. think about a CB like silva. his coordination, vison, reading of the game, etc isn't much different than a john terry. does his athleticism give him a supreme advantage as a player over terry (and every other CB)? yes.
and there are some positions that are obviously amplified with physical superiority. winger, wingback, and striker are the 3 obvious positions. what happens when you get a totti with supreme strength, speed, quickness, and explosiveness? you get brazillian ronaldo. that athleticism gives him an advantage.
This. All of it. There are a few people in this thread on one extreme or the other. You need skill - lots and lots of it. But having more of your best athletes trying to perfect those skills from an early age is never a bad thing in any country in the world.
quote:
now, a more poignant question is at what point can athleticism help mask a slight deficiency in skill? it would kill you if it happened at every position, but you could construct a team around that advantage to mask slight issues with skill i think.
This is a great point. I think (and am open to hear who agrees or disagrees with this) that having children play on smaller fields from a younger age can help this in some regard. You don't give them as much space to simply run by everyone.
Also proper coaching in drills and technique should hone the skill and then let the kid loose armed with that and his athleticism. Nothing wrong with speed - just don't want it to be the only weapon (as the previous poster said about Walcott)
Posted on 8/6/15 at 5:26 pm to etm512
quote:
no matter what sort of athletic pool is presented, we have to develop a certain level of skill to become elite . . .
what happens when you get a totti with supreme strength, speed, quickness, and explosiveness? you get brazillian ronaldo. that athleticism gives him an advantage.
quote:
This. All of it. There are a few people in this thread on one extreme or the other. You need skill - lots and lots of it. But having more of your best athletes trying to perfect those skills from an early age is never a bad thing in any country in the world.
I agree that there's a lot of extremes being argued.
I think it's due to many of the posts that read like "if our best athletes play soccer we will dominate the world".
These type posts always seem to efface the first point that both etm512 and SlowFloPro highligh:
Skill comes first. Worry about if it's in a great athlete second.
I certainly agree that if you have Totti skill in a faster more explosive athlete you may have real Ronaldo.
However, and this is the point most posters here are usually making, if there's not the Totti skill first, you have Altidore, at best.
Developing one player, even if it's a Molasses slow, 5'2", 125 beanpole, with Totti skills is where the USA's huge leap toward the soccer powers gets started.
This post was edited on 8/6/15 at 7:43 pm
Posted on 8/6/15 at 6:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
If you can run a 4:21 1600 in high school. Then, you have good foot speed. He can average 65's for a mile. He can run a quarter in the low 50's. World class speed, no. However, he does have a lot of speed and great stamina.
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