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Message
re: Without God, are all men truly equal?
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:48 pm to Bass Tiger
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:48 pm to Bass Tiger
Sounds like you were in deep thought today. I was feeling pretty philosophical myself this morning and thought about making a deep thought post, but figured no one would read anything over 3 or 4 sentences and I'd get bunch of second grade type insults. Now that you have started an interesting discussion, I'll give you my two cents worth on one of the things you referenced, evolution.
For some reason if anyone questions this theory, they are immediately ridiculed as if they were claiming the earth is flat, even though we all know that is much more ridiculous than claiming we evolved from single celled organisms and monkeys. A huge problem that everyone should have with evolution is that it is taught as fact with no alternatives. I'm not saying a religious alternative, I'm saying NO alternatives, not even other scientific theories. While I agree that species evolve as a result of select breeding or isolation, it is quite a jump to state as fact that is how humans came into existence.
The scientist, at least a majority of them, believe out of total chaos or a giant explosion of gases, a sense of natural order came into being which resulted in people, animals, plants, etc. The explanation is that it occurred over a long, long time period. So if I build a bomb or device that creates an enormous explosion, given enough time would a race of beings emerge as a result of it? What if I made it a bit more simple. I'm told that my iPhone is more powerful than the computers used on the lunar missions. It is pretty incredible. If I took it completely apart and placed it in a bag and came back in a gazillion years, would I pull out a fully functioning phone? What if I shook the bag for a gazillion years, same result? Think how much more complex a human being is. If I drop my phone, the screen will shatter. It can't heal itself. Yet, if I cut myself shaving, my body can. I can reproduce myself. I can't tell you how many times I wish my phone could do that. It would certainly have saved me a lot of money every time one of my kids broke their phones. Human beings are amazing. I can't accept that stuff just happened because of gazillions of years.
Something shouldn't be taught as fact, even though it is called theory, without some type of evidence. Another thing that makes no sense to me is why we only have a couple of strange skulls and some broken bones of all the evolutionary species of man. We have an unbelievable number of dinosaur bones. Wouldn't those bones be buried deeper in the sedimentary layers than the bones of human ancestors? I'm told we came much later than dinosaurs. Were all those bones simply discarded with the rocks and debris while scientist were digging for the much deeper dino bones? Out of all the prehistoric skulls that have been found, there are only a few, or let's even say scientist have found 10 or 20 which doesn't change my point, that fit the desired narrative? Is that enough to remove all shadow of doubt this is how humans came into being? What if someone in a million years digs up the elephant man's skull. I wonder what they would make of that if scientists use the same logic they are using today?
Wife needs me to move a piece of furniture...enough for now.
For some reason if anyone questions this theory, they are immediately ridiculed as if they were claiming the earth is flat, even though we all know that is much more ridiculous than claiming we evolved from single celled organisms and monkeys. A huge problem that everyone should have with evolution is that it is taught as fact with no alternatives. I'm not saying a religious alternative, I'm saying NO alternatives, not even other scientific theories. While I agree that species evolve as a result of select breeding or isolation, it is quite a jump to state as fact that is how humans came into existence.
The scientist, at least a majority of them, believe out of total chaos or a giant explosion of gases, a sense of natural order came into being which resulted in people, animals, plants, etc. The explanation is that it occurred over a long, long time period. So if I build a bomb or device that creates an enormous explosion, given enough time would a race of beings emerge as a result of it? What if I made it a bit more simple. I'm told that my iPhone is more powerful than the computers used on the lunar missions. It is pretty incredible. If I took it completely apart and placed it in a bag and came back in a gazillion years, would I pull out a fully functioning phone? What if I shook the bag for a gazillion years, same result? Think how much more complex a human being is. If I drop my phone, the screen will shatter. It can't heal itself. Yet, if I cut myself shaving, my body can. I can reproduce myself. I can't tell you how many times I wish my phone could do that. It would certainly have saved me a lot of money every time one of my kids broke their phones. Human beings are amazing. I can't accept that stuff just happened because of gazillions of years.
Something shouldn't be taught as fact, even though it is called theory, without some type of evidence. Another thing that makes no sense to me is why we only have a couple of strange skulls and some broken bones of all the evolutionary species of man. We have an unbelievable number of dinosaur bones. Wouldn't those bones be buried deeper in the sedimentary layers than the bones of human ancestors? I'm told we came much later than dinosaurs. Were all those bones simply discarded with the rocks and debris while scientist were digging for the much deeper dino bones? Out of all the prehistoric skulls that have been found, there are only a few, or let's even say scientist have found 10 or 20 which doesn't change my point, that fit the desired narrative? Is that enough to remove all shadow of doubt this is how humans came into being? What if someone in a million years digs up the elephant man's skull. I wonder what they would make of that if scientists use the same logic they are using today?
Wife needs me to move a piece of furniture...enough for now.
2
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:51 pm to TheTideMustRoll
quote:
Any scientist who actually attempted to study this subject objectively would be committing career suicide.
Race isn't a scientific concept, it's a varying and often arbitrary set of parameters by which humans try and categorize each other into nice neat little boxes.
The modern western concept of race equates Lebron James, Pele and Nelson Mandela. Three people with almost nothing in common except for the melanin content of their skin.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:51 pm to MastrShake
ok heather
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:53 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
I assume you meant understand evolution.
The lack of all men being equal does not dictate that rights should not be equal.
I did not infer man's law of equality but nature's law.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:59 pm to golfntiger32
quote:
The problem here is not God for the liberals, it is the interpretation of the term equal. If our founding documents hold that men are all equal then to liberals ( communist) that means everything should belong to the state and all people should get a "equal" share (fixed income/living wage).
Both the Founders and God and throw in Nature/Natural Law too, gt...would consider Egalitarian Ideology as blasphemous, in regard to true Justice. Such would be Idealistic, but like the existence of a single "righteous" (think sinless) individual...impossible. The very essence of 'individual' is limitation; and limitation is in and of itself essentially imperfection...and damning.
Liberals worship the Ideal; so do Conservatives. Which is great. Such may well be the "born of the Spirit" of the which Christian Theology promotes as a basic human 'rebirth' of sorts. All people should, according to their personal nature and innate 'heart's' intent (some won't; to each their own). But to try and force Worldly, Systematic equality upon Humanity, is not only counter-productive, tyrannically unjust, high-mindedly egotistical and likely evil...but it is hopelessly impractical. Outside of Orwell's "Animal Farm" scenario.
That said, my biased suspicion does incline me to believe that there will be an Earthly Kingdom, where the Truth of Jesus Christ is the "chief cornerstone". But it will not be implemented through tyrannical means or by lies...but with the visionary education and willfull CHOICE individuals who were likely "tried by fire"...and perfected therein. At least "for them that look for His coming"; implying that we ultimately get the reality that we create. Fair enough.
Hangin it up for the day.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 8:59 pm to bmy
quote:
White people for example.. if the north american continent became uninhabitable due to some cataclysmic event.. would result in massive depopulation at the hands of skin cancer if forced to move closer to the equator.
I think you're right, white people are genetically inferior when dealing with direct UV radiation, however we have learned to cover ourselves to protect our genetic short comings which is a trait of adaptive intelligence.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:06 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
I assume you meant understand evolution
If you're an atheist and believe in evolution to the extent that man crawled from a primordial soup,_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
That's what I meant. That level of evolution, beginning from a complex amino acid that spontaneously came into existence and was able to reproduce itself is a belief, almost like a religion.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:07 pm to Bass Tiger
All men are not equal with or without God.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:08 pm to Ramblin Wreck
quote:
Something shouldn't be taught as fact, even though it is called theory, without some type of evidence. Another thing that makes no sense to me is why we only have a couple of strange skulls and some broken bones of all the evolutionary species of man. We have an unbelievable number of dinosaur bones. Wouldn't those bones be buried deeper in the sedimentary layers than the bones of human ancestors? I'm told we came much later than dinosaurs. Were all those bones simply discarded with the rocks and debris while scientist were digging for the much deeper dino bones? Out of all the prehistoric skulls that have been found, there are only a few, or let's even say scientist have found 10 or 20 which doesn't change my point, that fit the desired narrative? Is that enough to remove all shadow of doubt this is how humans came into being? What if someone in a million years digs up the elephant man's skull. I wonder what they would make of that if scientists use the same logic they are using today?
Wife needs me to move a piece of furniture...enough for now.
I've often wondered at the intelligence chasm between man and the nearest relative to man, the great apes. Taking into account that a great ape does resemble the human anatomy in appearance their intelligence is closer to a Dolphin or an Elephant. Which means when comparing the smartest animals, the great apes, dolphin and elephant are pretty close in intelligence.
If we reference nature to compare man to the aforementioned smartest animals, we are either a complete freak of nature X 10,000 or there is much more going on in this undefinable reality than many would like to deal with. Enter God.
This post was edited on 6/25/17 at 9:23 pm
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:11 pm to Bass Tiger
No. Some people have a personal drive to succeed and prosper.
Some are stupid and lazy and would rather live off the taxpayer tit.
Some are stupid and lazy and would rather live off the taxpayer tit.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:14 pm to bamarep
Calling your analysis "surface level" would be a disservice to surface level analyses.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:20 pm to bamarep
quote:why would you post this in a thread about race?
No. Some people have a personal drive to succeed and prosper. Some are stupid and lazy and would rather live off the taxpayer tit.
were there any particular races you were thinking about when you wrote that?
which races "...have a personal drive to succeed and prosper"?
which races "...are stupid and lazy and would rather live off the taxpayer tit"?
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:27 pm to MastrShake
quote:
why would you post this in a thread about race?
I agree, this is not meant to slight any race, this OP is an attempt to spur individuals to think about where equality originates. I will offer, it does not come from the goodness of man. Man is inherently flawed and riddled with sin.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:35 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
This process would be continuous, as new superior species/races evolve and inferior species go extinct.
Survival of the fittest does not mean 'superior', it means the species fitness is judge by how well it thrives in its niche amongst the selective pressures.
Name one current global selective pressure on humans that we can't adapt to
hence, no evolution to a, and I ll use your words, a superior race.
quote:
This topic is considered taboo
no what is taboo is what men in power do with this pitiful misunderstand of what evolution and 'survival of the fittest' mean.
quote:
Let's keep in mind that man has bred the dog species into a wide variance of size, intelligence, longevity, etc. and this was all accomplished in just the past 25,000 yrs, I only mention this as a reference on how fast a specie/breed can change due to selective breeding, and we all love dogs but all dogs are not equa
what does that have to do with making a superior human race with exactly zero selective pressures.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:38 pm to AMS
quote:
Actually every species alive today is equally advanced.
and as according to phylogeny there is no such thing as races for humans. if so it would actually make them distinct subspecies with more specific reproductive groups which is not accurate.
Define equally advanced. Start with the physical differences between races and prove to me all races are equal. Yes we still use race to describe the Mongolian, Caucasian, and Negroid even though we're all Homo sapiens.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:52 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Define equally advanced. Start with the physical differences between races and prove to me all races are equal. Yes we still use race to describe the Mongolian, Caucasian, and Negroid even though we're all Homo sapiens.
equally advanced, as in every species that has not gone extinct has evolved equally as much as every other living species. Only extinct species could be considered less advanced because well they stopped advancing.
I cannot prove to you anything related to physical differences in race, because race in the species homo sapiens is not science it is a social construct.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:53 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:i would assume he meant that every race is so close to one another, biologically, that were all "the same". clearly there are physical differences, but when you look at all the things that define a human being as a human being, the differences between races is infinitesimal.
Define equally advanced.
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:55 pm to Bass Tiger
The first problem with the internal syllogism that most are struggling with is the statement,"...all men are created equal...". Even though that is a frequently quoted statement from The Declaration of Independence, it is quoted both out of context and incompletely.
First of all, the DOI is not technically a legal document nor part and parcel of the Constitution. It was a well-prepared statement (treasonous and illegal at the time) which explained the reasons for the dissolution of colonial bonds.
Let's examine the complete statement: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Please note that those are commas separating the clauses.
There lies the first rub, these rights are endowed by a creator; therefore, the basic premise did not exist to these men without having one.
The second issue lies with the fact that the equality stated is clearly defined. The equality is only stated as dealing with 1. Life, 2. Liberty, and 3. The PURSUIT of Happiness. There is nothing there guaranteeing happiness.
There is no mention of equality in regards to abilities, disabilities, intelligence, sexual orientation, etc... Put the words in context and most of the arguments fall apart in regards to the founding fathers.
First of all, the DOI is not technically a legal document nor part and parcel of the Constitution. It was a well-prepared statement (treasonous and illegal at the time) which explained the reasons for the dissolution of colonial bonds.
Let's examine the complete statement: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Please note that those are commas separating the clauses.
There lies the first rub, these rights are endowed by a creator; therefore, the basic premise did not exist to these men without having one.
The second issue lies with the fact that the equality stated is clearly defined. The equality is only stated as dealing with 1. Life, 2. Liberty, and 3. The PURSUIT of Happiness. There is nothing there guaranteeing happiness.
There is no mention of equality in regards to abilities, disabilities, intelligence, sexual orientation, etc... Put the words in context and most of the arguments fall apart in regards to the founding fathers.
This post was edited on 6/25/17 at 9:58 pm
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:57 pm to Big12fan
quote:did you miss the part about Satan, sin, etc.?
If God exists how can nature be anything but his will?
Posted on 6/25/17 at 10:04 pm to MastrShake
quote:
what does "equal" even mean to you?
because im an atheist and there are lots of very good reasons to believe that all races are equal. it doesn't mean the races are identical, they are physically different in many ways, but they all have equal ability to contribute and make the world a better place.
We are to be treated as equals under US law and are afforded the opportunity to pursue one's own destiny. My contention is equality is a product of man's belief that all men were created in God's image. If you look at the most oppressive, murderous, and brutal governments/empires in modern times they all share atheism as a tenet of their ruling system.
Don't throw the "Hitler was a Christian" myth into the thread. Nazism and Christianity are antithetical, anybody can claim to be a Christian but one does not have to think very hard to understand Hitler was not a Christian, rather he was a narcissistic/schizophrenic madman.
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