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1
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:23 pm to the808bass
quote:
Well, it's impossible to argue with a begged question. Good show.
I aim to please.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:27 pm to ShortyRob
quote:I couldn't disagree more with atheists and non-atheists arriving at what is "good" in the exact same fashion, but that's beside the point.
Atheists and non-Atheists arrived at what is "good" in EXACTLY the same fashion.
It's just that the non-Atheists declared that what they arrived at came from a super being.
The point I'm making is that, as an atheist that believes there is no God or cosmic force that determines a singular standard for morality, you have to create morality out of thin air since it doesn't exist as a universal law or rule. Morality, therefore, has to be completely subjective and arbitrary, stemming from each individual however they choose to perceive it.
This would mean there is no objective "good" or "bad" because there is no universal standard by which to judge those concepts. Therefore, for an atheist, morality has to be an individual preference in order to be logically consistent. The problem is that atheists tend to reject that notion and claim that "everyone knows that x is wrong". They are claiming a universal standard of morality that cannot exist in their worldview as any individual can have a different view of morality than even the majority within a society and they can't be "wrong" for thinking the way that they do.
You can talk about a moral code being enforced by the strong upon the weak ("might makes right"), but that moral code can change with the wind and what is "moral" today can be "immoral" tomorrow, and vice versa. With an ever-changing moral code, it makes no sense to condemn anyone who doesn't agree with that moral code (especially those that don't live in your society) because they could be "right" and you could be "wrong" tomorrow. Morality, therefore, becomes arbitrary.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:30 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
couldn't disagree more with atheists and non-atheists arriving at what is "good" in the exact same fashion, but that's beside the point.
I really don't see how it's even possible to disagree with my statement.
quote:I wouldn't use the word arbitrary, but, OK.
The point I'm making is that, as an atheist that believes there is no God or cosmic force that determines a singular standard for morality, you have to create morality out of thin air since it doesn't exist as a universal law or rule. Morality, therefore, has to be completely subjective and arbitrary, stemming from each individual however they choose to perceive it.
quote:You are confusing universal standard with largely accepted truth based upon experience.
They are claiming a universal standard of morality that cannot exist in their worldview as any individual can have a different view of morality than even the majority within a society and they can't be "wrong" for thinking the way that they do.
A great many of the moral truths today's modern religious people declare as "from God" are truths that were commonly articulated long before Jesus showed up............or, in societies completely disconnected from Abrahamic tradition.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:36 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
??
Yep. A lot of people live that way. Its one of the main reasons IMO why people havent already blown this planet up.
Yep. A lot of people live that way. Its one of the main reasons IMO why people havent already blown this planet up.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:40 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
great many of the moral truths today's modern religious people declare as "from God" are truths that were commonly articulated long before Jesus showed up............or, in societies completely disconnected from Abrahamic tradition.
Are you saying the people God created have similar views of morality? What about the people He didn't create?
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:41 pm to the808bass
quote:I knew that's where you were headed.
Are you saying the people God created have similar views of morality? What about the people He didn't create?
Assumption of facts not in evidence.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 2:54 pm to ShortyRob
quote:I'm glad you clarified your previous statement because it makes it easier to explain why I disagree. You said, "Both arrived at the conclusion using human reason" and I reject that. Christians claim to have arrived at that conclusion through revelation, not human reason.
I really don't see how it's even possible to disagree with my statement.
quote:I used "arbitrary" because most people don't really have a reason for it other than they just know something is right or wrong (goes back to another point that people don't generally think through their presuppositions), or because people accept a moral standard through consensus (which can and does often change) instead of something more concrete from a philosophical perspective.
I wouldn't use the word arbitrary, but, OK.
quote:I don't think I'm confusing them. I'm trying to point out that very difference, except I wouldn't use the word "truth" like you did because it's not a truth if it is subject to change. There most certainly is a difference between being widely accepted and being universal. My point is that the wide acceptance does not make a moral standard universally "right" and therefore it would be inconsistent for a society that accepts that standard to negatively judge another society that doesn't accept that same standard. Real world example: Muslim cultures that impose religious laws and puts to death women for being raped and people for being gay. There is no universal standard for our country (for example) to judge Iran for what they do to their people because their standard is just different than ours.
You are confusing universal standard with largely accepted truth based upon experience.
quote:Christianity has an answer to that: God wrote His moral law on the hearts of mankind so that everyone knows through what we call the conscience that certain things are morally wrong. There's definitely more that can be said about that concept but I'll leave it at that for now.
A great many of the moral truths today's modern religious people declare as "from God" are truths that were commonly articulated long before Jesus showed up............or, in societies completely disconnected from Abrahamic tradition.
This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 3:02 pm
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:23 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
So you're saying due to the good hand some races have been dealt over other in terms of climate, geography and local wildlife populations that some races are in fact superior to others?
No. I'm saying that some 'races' are better acclimated to specific environments and have natural advantages there. Superior.. inferior.. it depends on where the game is being played (depends on the context).
This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:26 pm to bmy
quote:But not equal?
Superior.. inferior.. it depends on where the game is being played (depends on the context).
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:40 pm to PaperTiger
quote:
Yep. A lot of people live that way. Its one of the main reasons IMO why people havent already blown this planet up.
That doesn't mean it's a concept unique to your god.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:45 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Morality, therefore, has to be completely subjective and arbitrary, stemming from each individual however they choose to perceive it.
No, it doesn't.
I know you claimed to have never heard of William Lane Craig, but your points read like they came directly from his apologetics playbook.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:56 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Christianity has an answer to that
It's amazing what is possible when human imagination is the only limit.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 4:01 pm to Bass Tiger
As a very wise man* once said,
"There are two kinds of people in the world: the kind that believe there are two kinds of people in the world and the kind that don't."
*do your own damn homework...
"There are two kinds of people in the world: the kind that believe there are two kinds of people in the world and the kind that don't."
*do your own damn homework...
Posted on 6/26/17 at 4:04 pm to FooManChoo
We were talking
About the space between us all
And the people
Who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth
Then it's far too late when they pass away
About the space between us all
And the people
Who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth
Then it's far too late when they pass away
This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 6/26/17 at 4:18 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
I knew that's where you were headed. Assumption of facts not in evidence.
I'm just shite posting like you are.
Posted on 6/26/17 at 4:29 pm to Machine
quote:
We were talking
About the space between us all
And the people
Who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth
Then it's far too late when they pass away
We were talking
About the love we all could share
When we find it
To try our best to hold it there, with our love, with our love
We could save the world, if they only knew
ETA- Have an upvote for the reference
This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 4:30 pm
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