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Message
re: Single payer= lower salaries for nurses, by at least 8000/year
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:14 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:14 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Good luck with cutting the income of the 2nd most respected profession out there.
Da fuq?
1
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:15 pm to boogiewoogie1978
quote:Behind soldiers, nurses and teachers are the most beloved.
Da fuq?
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:16 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Nurses are like 6
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:24 pm to chRxis
quote:
i'd gladly take a pay cut if that means that more people have access to healthcare and facilities and they can take better care of themselves and their kids... see, i actually care about people other than myself.
But you apparently don't give two shits about all the other people that will be taking a pay cut.
Reminds me of a meme out there asking why Christians are so against free Healthcare. The people that post that meme seem to forget that one of the ten commandments was thou shall not steal.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:42 pm to chRxis
So generous with other people's money
And pompous virtue signalling too!
And pompous virtue signalling too!
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:52 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Not only would single payer lower nurse salaries, it would raise their taxes at the same time.
Would be political nightmare
A couple things that should be kept in mind.
P.P.P. is based around the idea of equalizing income discrepancies around a basket of goods and services. Like food, rent, utilities, leisure activities etc.
It is a pretty useful tool overall. However, in this application, it inevitably excludes things that probably are important to not ignore. Like benefits, quality of life metrics, along with potential lurking costs that are not calculated in that" basket." For instance things like educational debt, insurances, certain taxes, or regional variances/outliers dragging down the average.
Also, depending on when the survey is done, the PPP calculus could have changed(if based on often used PPP sources) so you can see some notable differentiations in results depending on when the survey is taken. For instance the International Council of Nurses does a fairly annual survey of comparative international nursing salaries in various fields, and they vary a decent bit from the above source:
LINK
Also I would add, single-payer is an administrative system that pays for citizens healthcare. It is one of many different forms of UHC. The delivery of actual healthcare can be private or public.
Single payer certainly has the power to negotiate much more strongly then our fragmented, de-unified Frankenstein of a public/private system, however, there is nothing that prevents a single-payer system from keeping relevant reimbursement rates high, finding offsetting cost-savings(like subsidized education costs), structural reforms, if voters desire it, thus keeping salaries high.
For evidence that it is fallacious to correlate higher government control = lower medical profession salaries, one could simply look at the OP's list. By that logic the UK should be the lowest salaried country if the thesis held true. Yet it is near the top while being the most government controlled system on that list.
Also, it is wise to keep in mind that a lot of health-care spending is outside of the physician/nurse salary pie. There is plenty of cost cutting to be had before chipping away at physician and nurse salaries.
This post was edited on 5/17/17 at 11:03 pm
Posted on 5/17/17 at 10:55 pm to bonhoeffer45
Cut Doctor and drug company pay. Give more to bedside people. Let fricking doctors compete on price like we all have to. Make insurance for major medical only and cut the fat cats out.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 11:04 pm to bonhoeffer45
This is where I disagree with you. You can't simply say that european and canadian healthcare is cheap because of "single payer" as a system. As has been pointed out, there has been no evidence that these systems actually lowered healthcare spending in their respective nations. We have no study that tracked the healthcare systems in europe and canada before and after they became more under government control.
What we do know however, is that nurse pay in many european nations is a huge issue, and cnn even had a recent article where have all of europe's nurses gone . There is a definite pay gap, and the UK being 3.52 dollars less per hour is alot of money when you consider the average workers works 2080 hours per year. That's 7300 dollars.
And there are millions of nurses in America. Cutting their pay by 3 bucks/hour would reduce costs by almost 30 billion dollars.
Income plays a significant role in costs, and european nations are simply culturally different when it comes to what kind of lifestyle being a doctor entails. There is absolutely a class difference between doctors here and doctors there, especially specialists. It's much more of a middle class profession there.
What we do know however, is that nurse pay in many european nations is a huge issue, and cnn even had a recent article where have all of europe's nurses gone . There is a definite pay gap, and the UK being 3.52 dollars less per hour is alot of money when you consider the average workers works 2080 hours per year. That's 7300 dollars.
And there are millions of nurses in America. Cutting their pay by 3 bucks/hour would reduce costs by almost 30 billion dollars.
Income plays a significant role in costs, and european nations are simply culturally different when it comes to what kind of lifestyle being a doctor entails. There is absolutely a class difference between doctors here and doctors there, especially specialists. It's much more of a middle class profession there.
Posted on 5/17/17 at 11:28 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
This is where I disagree with you. You can't simply say that european and canadian healthcare is cheap because of "single payer" as a system. As has been pointed out, there has been no evidence that these systems actually lowered healthcare spending in their respective nations. We have no study that tracked the healthcare systems in europe and canada before and after they became more under government control.
I think I sort of just said that very thing? No?
My argument, to be clear, is that Single Payer CAN reduce costs and COULD reduce medical salaries. But it all depends.
That is because it all comes down to how the tools are leveraged, how things are structured in and around that single-payer reform.
What Single-Payer has the power to do is greatly reduce a number of administrative bureaucracies, eliminate uncompensated care, and if so desired, use its superior leveraging power to control costs and prices in various sectors of the health-care economy much more strongly then now.
And I would refer you again to the above post, it is smart to keep in mind the limitations and deviations of PPP salary comparisons. Like I mentioned, how much savings does that nurse or doctor in England have by leaving college with little to no debt? What value do you place on the much better work benefits and superior paid leave and vacation?
And I would say your own data suggests there is not really a big chasm between physicians in America and several UHC countries.
This post was edited on 5/17/17 at 11:43 pm
Posted on 5/17/17 at 11:34 pm to larry289
quote:
Single payer= lower salaries for nurses, by at least 8000/year quote: i do try to treat everyone the way i'd like to be treated and live by the golden rule...v 1-How big of a pay cut would you take? 2-Is it OK if your Health premium goes to $2500/mo with a $8-10K deductible? 3-Is it OK if illegal aliens get coverage on your nickel? 4-Is it OK if the people you relish helping don't work, drop out of school, have 10 kids out of wedlock and get free health care? 5-How many of #4 before you might reconsider? 6-Do you believe people have a personal responsibility for themselves, including their health? 7-Do you believe you and they should live forever free from health problems? 8-Do you also support cradle to grave support by the government? 9-Did you vote for Obarry?
How does any of this positively impact the costs associated with uninsured and underinsured folks getting treated and the provider collecting from paying customers?
Y'all can be mean spirited, practical...,whatever term you prefer but not a solitary proposal ever put forth outside of the ACA addressed the 400 pound canary which is people who can't or won't pay for health getting healthcare and the costs being paid by paying customers
Posted on 5/17/17 at 11:35 pm to noonan
quote:
But you apparently don't give two shits about all the other people that will be taking a pay cut.
Reminds me of a meme out there asking why Christians are so against free Healthcare. The people that post that meme seem to forget that one of the ten commandments was thou shall not steal.
America is #2 in nurse salaries. UK nurses make 2/3 of what an American nurse makes. Korean Nurse salaries are a joke and they treat you like crap.
Why are American nurse salaries so high compared to the rest of the world?
It just feels like the US health care industry is out of control.
This post was edited on 5/17/17 at 11:37 pm
Posted on 5/18/17 at 12:23 am to larry289
quote:
1-How big of a pay cut would you take?
i'd be willing to pay 50% in taxes if it meant that you and i could have free healthcare when we need it, along with better roads, schools, etc...
quote:
2-Is it OK if your Health premium goes to $2500/mo with a $8-10K deductible?
umm... with single payer there isn't a premium nor a deductible...
quote:
3-Is it OK if illegal aliens get coverage on your nickel?
illegal immigrants, no (though ethically you can't deny someone medical treatment, even if they are an illegal immigrant)... immigrants, yes, as they are now citizens just like you and i...
quote:
4-Is it OK if the people you relish helping don't work, drop out of school, have 10 kids out of wedlock and get free health care?
no.. i believe if you are taking out of the pot, you should be putting in... not all jobs pay a "living wage"... income inequality, wage gaps, etc are a real thing.... however, if able bodied and mentally sound, you should have to work at least 28-30 hours a week to keep benefits... and if you can't find a job, you then become a state worker.... you may be sweeping streets, etc, but if you are taking from the government you either find your own job, or one WILL be appointed to you...
quote:
5-How many of #4 before you might reconsider?
again, see #4...
quote:
6-Do you believe people have a personal responsibility for themselves, including their health?
i do think that the majority does care about themselves, their family, and the future... of course, there are freeloaders... of course, there are people who abuse the system... however, it's no where near what people would like to think it is... although i see tax fraud and people who cheat the gov't out of taxes as a bigger issue than people "getting handouts"... at least the latter is motivated by survival or baseline standard, but the former is motivated by straight greed...
as far as their health, yeah that's yet to be seen... but if they have more available access to PREVENTATIVE healthcare, perhaps you could see that improve... and preventative care costs much, much less than hospitalizations for chronic issues due to diabetes, COPD, CVD, etc...
quote:
7-Do you believe you and they should live forever free from health problems?
i believe that everyone should have, at the least, affordable access to healthcare... it's not a fricking privilege... like i said, perhaps i value people for the human life that they essentially are...
quote:
8-Do you also support cradle to grave support by the government?
i believe that we as a society have a moral and ethical duty to see to it that everyone be given basic human rights and freedoms... that includes access to affordable healthcare as a right, not a privilege... perhaps you see freeloader, with 5 kids, etc.... i see them as human life... are we that callous that we no longer even view other humans as a valuable entity on earth, despite what you think about them from an economic, or educational, or etc. point of view?
in the richest country in the world we shouldn't have children dying from easily preventable diseases, yet we do.... because mom and dad couldn't afford the health insurance, or if they had it, they had to live paycheck to paycheck, etc.... that is just unacceptable, and we should be ashamed, as a nation that we DO have that narrative, all to often... kids DEFINITELY should have free healthcare.... retirees, should have much more affordable if not free healthcare....
quote:
9-Did you vote for Obarry?
2008, yes... 2012, no
Posted on 5/18/17 at 12:28 am to noonan
quote:
The people that post that meme seem to forget that one of the ten commandments was thou shall not steal.
love thy neighbor > thou shall not steal....
and i'm not even a christian...
Posted on 5/18/17 at 12:30 am to ruzil
quote:
Do you own your own Pharmacy?
my wife and i are part owner of a pharmacy, yes...
Posted on 5/18/17 at 12:43 am to chRxis
quote:
pay 50% in taxes
quote:
free healthcare
Note to self. Pharmacists lack the most basic knowledge of economics.
Posted on 5/18/17 at 12:46 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Hey, we'll get nurses of the same quality as the people who answer the phone when you call any state agency.
Posted on 5/18/17 at 1:08 am to chRxis
quote:Are you under the impresison that the only way to love thy neighbor is to have the government get involved in their charity?
love thy neighbor > thou shall not steal....
Posted on 5/18/17 at 1:36 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Are you under the impresison that the only way to love thy neighbor is to have the government get involved in their charity?
honest question, how did you get that from what my response was to that guy's post? my comment was not even in the political spectrum, yet you chose to attach that stigma to anything and everything someone says? you do realize that we all can have personal convictions and desires OUTSIDE of both theology and political affiliation...
Posted on 5/18/17 at 1:39 am to chRxis
quote:You said that the commandment "love thy neighbor" means you should support single payer.
chRxis
Posted on 5/18/17 at 2:04 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
You said that the commandment "love thy neighbor" means you should support single payer.
no, that's not what i was trying to say, at least not in any political sense...
basically, what i was trying to say is that treating other with love and respect is, IMO, a much bigger issue than worrying about people stealing.... i wasn't using that as support for the healthcare thing.... you took what i was saying and applied the wrong context.... but it's all good... no harm, no foul...
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