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Started By
Message
re: Serious Question About the St Louis Outrage
Posted on 8/12/14 at 8:43 am to BIGDAB
Posted on 8/12/14 at 8:43 am to BIGDAB
quote:
housing discrimination
probably your best argument, the notion being white people only wanted to live with other white people...however, you'd be hard pressed to get 95% of white people to vote for the same candidate...what you're describing is just essentially the popularly held idea that black people were inferior and dangerous. There wasn't a "white community" White people were the kent state students and the soldiers who shot them. Again, there is no desegregation or civil rights without white people...you don't think such a small percentage of the population just forced it's will on an unwilling population? White people thought segregation was immoral, white people thought it was necessary, some white people didn't care. There was a diversity of thought and opinion. That's why there isn't segregation. Thank god white people didn't exhibit the kind of homogenous behavior exhibited today by the black community...things would still be pretty fricked.
1
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:10 am to DelU249
quote:
the notion being white people only wanted to live with other white people...
So they could protect their white community.
quote:
you'd be hard pressed to get 95% of white people to vote for the same candidate...
I wonder what the election results look like in the south during the civil rights era. Candidates who were pro segregation probably carried 90% or more of the total votes if they were pro segregation. On top of that I'm sure there were some white people who did not like those policies, but voted to keep them in place, just to protect their community.
quote:
Thank god white people didn't exhibit the kind of homogenous behavior exhibited today by the black community...things would still be pretty fricked.
Most white people didn't care about civil rights for black folk until they were told to. Agitation from black folk bought it to the unequal rights to the forefront. Being called out as hypocrites on human rights gave the nations elected officials the push they needed to enact civil rights legislation.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:16 am to BIGDAB
you want to talk about white culture, particularly southern white culture, in the 19th century and i'll be right there hurling shite with you...but according to all census data, there is nothing like what we're talking about TODAY.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:19 am to uway
quote:
We brought black people here, we enslaved them
'We' has been dead for a couple hundred years now. Go piss on their graves if you want to feel better.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:29 am to DelU249
Can't copy/paste with my phone, but I have to weigh in on a comment which was made earlier, stating that most people are killed by a person of the same race.
While that happens to be a fact, it means nothing unless you also examine the rate by which people of the same race are killing each other. The fact is, non-blacks aren't killing each other at anything even remotely approaching the rate of blacks killing other blacks.
There isn't an epidemic of whites killing other white people.
Ditto for Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc.
So, to simply say that most people are killed by a member of the same race, without talking about the rate by which it is happening, is simply ludicrous.
Yet, nobody marches, riots, or loots over this epidemic of black on black killing.
PS - I'm not angry, trackfan. I'm just telling the truth about this matter.
While that happens to be a fact, it means nothing unless you also examine the rate by which people of the same race are killing each other. The fact is, non-blacks aren't killing each other at anything even remotely approaching the rate of blacks killing other blacks.
There isn't an epidemic of whites killing other white people.
Ditto for Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc.
So, to simply say that most people are killed by a member of the same race, without talking about the rate by which it is happening, is simply ludicrous.
Yet, nobody marches, riots, or loots over this epidemic of black on black killing.
PS - I'm not angry, trackfan. I'm just telling the truth about this matter.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:33 am to Semaphore
quote:
'We' has been dead for a couple hundred years now. Go piss on their graves if you want to feel better.
Ahem
quote:
Now you get to think "what's this 'our people' stuff? I didn't do anything to anyone."
And I say you are not living in the real world and cannot be part of any solution that will actually work. You might as well just admit that you don't care what happens to the country if your solution to the racial problem is to whine about how it shouldn't exist.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:46 am to 4LSU2
I'm happy to talk about racial issues. I think it would be helpful, eventually.
But we can't. Not in a toxic environment where white people who say "wow, looting is bad" are shouted down as condoning the potential murder of the Brown kid. Not where noting that areas of high black resident concentration are generally not desirable places to live is considered taboo. Not where the media, the black community, the liberal white community, etc., refuse to acknowledge that when it comes to everyday violence, the black on white threat far exceeds the white on black threat, and that this leads to fear, some justified, some not.
But, from the white side, we'll have to acknowledge that this country was built without considering black people. They weren't in "our" framework for how we're going to move forward. While I think most institutionalized racism claims are ridiculous, it isn't ridiculous to recognize that a black kid in America grows up thinking a lot of schools, jobs, lifestyles, etc. just aren't for him. Some of that fault lies in the black community, but some whites refuse to even recognize that reality.
In sum, TLDR, I'm all for talking about it, but the environment just isn't conducive to a frank discussion.
But we can't. Not in a toxic environment where white people who say "wow, looting is bad" are shouted down as condoning the potential murder of the Brown kid. Not where noting that areas of high black resident concentration are generally not desirable places to live is considered taboo. Not where the media, the black community, the liberal white community, etc., refuse to acknowledge that when it comes to everyday violence, the black on white threat far exceeds the white on black threat, and that this leads to fear, some justified, some not.
But, from the white side, we'll have to acknowledge that this country was built without considering black people. They weren't in "our" framework for how we're going to move forward. While I think most institutionalized racism claims are ridiculous, it isn't ridiculous to recognize that a black kid in America grows up thinking a lot of schools, jobs, lifestyles, etc. just aren't for him. Some of that fault lies in the black community, but some whites refuse to even recognize that reality.
In sum, TLDR, I'm all for talking about it, but the environment just isn't conducive to a frank discussion.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:54 am to BIGDAB
quote:
Most white people didn't care about civil rights for black folk until they were told to. Agitation from black folk bought it to the unequal rights to the forefront. Being called out as hypocrites on human rights gave the nations elected officials the push they needed to enact civil rights legislation.
Very true, BD. And the mark of true character/righteousness, is - when called out - what does the individual or group THEN DO. Back then, White America - nws the ingrained racism - did the right thing.
The question remains, whether Black folk will step up today; or just go the blame Whitey route.
MLK nailed it. It's not about color...it's about character. Personally first, and then in the Collective.
One of the top men in my formative life, was a simple/relatively poor Black man, who had irreproachable character. He took a lot of ingrained racial abuse in the day; the low-level version. But wrote it off as being the will of God that he bear his load honorably, and in true Christian form. This man was by far no wuss; he could play fullback for the Saints if born in modern times.
I hit him straight up one day, when I got older; asking him how, and why he put up with it. He told me that he always kept his garden tools sharp, just in case he weakened and told his (ignorant) tormentors to go to hell. He never did; the man said "yesuh and nosuh" till his dying day. For me...he is the epitome of real Christian character and humility. Supreme dignity...out of seemingly intolerable indignity. I love that man, and hope to be with Joe Baker in the next life.
Humanity moving up. Hard trog, well worth it.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:55 am to KCT
quote:
it means nothing unless you also examine the rate by which people of the same race are killing each other. The fact is, non-blacks aren't killing each other at anything even remotely approaching the rate of blacks killing other blacks.
Again, this is just deflection. It gives justification for whites to criticize the black community for a problem that pervades both races. The bigger point is for both races, the vast majority of victims of violent crime are poor and downtrodden.
It's like the welfare debate. If you look at total number of welfare recipients, the number of whites and blacks receiving welfare assistance is virtually the same, yet the blacks are far more vilified for it.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 9:59 am to Pettifogger
Just throwing this out here...
A political blog called Gateway Pundit in the St. Louis area has been covering this thing since it started.
They're currently down due to server issues, but this morning they had a post up linking a report from the Ferguson PD.
Specifically, they're claiming that everyone busted in Ferguson so far for looting has been an individual with a prior criminal record who is not from Ferguson.
A political blog called Gateway Pundit in the St. Louis area has been covering this thing since it started.
They're currently down due to server issues, but this morning they had a post up linking a report from the Ferguson PD.
Specifically, they're claiming that everyone busted in Ferguson so far for looting has been an individual with a prior criminal record who is not from Ferguson.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:01 am to The Spleen
quote:
Again, this is just deflection. It gives justification for whites to criticize the black community for a problem that pervades both races. The bigger point is for both races, the vast majority of victims of violent crime are poor and downtrodden.
No, it's not a deflection. It would be incorrect to assume that it's an issue driven by race. But the rate of murders committed by black young men means something. You can't pretend facts away.
quote:
The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for male victims was 7.13 per 100,000. For white male victims, the homicide rate was 3.85 per 100,000.
LINK
Perhaps focusing on the victim side of the equation would be more helpful to you.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:04 am to teke184
quote:
Specifically, they're claiming that everyone busted in Ferguson so far for looting has been an individual with a prior criminal record who is not from Ferguson.
Totally not shocked.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:04 am to The Spleen
You're the one who's deflecting, Spleen. You're the one who tried to dismiss any discussion of black-on-black violence by stating that most people are killed by a member of the same race.
To state that fact, while ignoring the fact that blacks are killing other blacks at an alarming rate, is ridiculous.
Whyisnt the black community similarly outraged over this black on black violence? Where are the marches for something that is happening with 100X more frequency?
To state that fact, while ignoring the fact that blacks are killing other blacks at an alarming rate, is ridiculous.
Whyisnt the black community similarly outraged over this black on black violence? Where are the marches for something that is happening with 100X more frequency?
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:10 am to dante
quote:Outrage over that happens, but it doesn't get as much media attention. If you have worked in a city you would see the huge amount of effort that people give daily to fighting the wave of crime and violence. They also recognize the need for more police protection in some areas, which they ask for every day.
his point is more unarmed, innocent children are killed in drive by shootings in the ghetto than by police. He is only asking why the outrage now, why not when truly innocent children are shot and killed by a thug.
The problem with out of control officers is another concern but thankfully it comes up less often or with less obvious results.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:13 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Not where noting that areas of high black resident concentration are generally not desirable places to live is considered taboo
I think it's fair to include poor when describing black communities this way. there are middle class black neighborhoods that exist in this country, that you never hear anything about, because nothing ever happens there.
Most racial issues would be non issues if the economic situation was better in some of the poorer neighborhoods.
Having said that I think a lot of the problems you see in large urban areas and some rural ones stem from black folk being marginalized through racist laws and policies. However, I also feel that after the large scale fight for civil rights ended a lot of the "talented tenth" turned their backs on the people in the "hood". Some of the best and brightest left, while the worse off stayed behind.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:18 am to KCT
quote:
Whyisnt the black community similarly outraged over this black on black violence? Where are the marches for something that is happening with 100X more frequency?
Again... There are countless people working in the community trying to better the lives of at risk youth. Because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:20 am to constant cough
quote:
White people are too scared to be outraged by it. Don't want to be called racist.
That's part of it. Also,I have been told that I can't have an opinion about anything that occurs in the "black community" because I am a white woman. I have been told white people should stay out of it. I've offered suggestions and been told I'm racist,and I don't understand.
So,I mean I guess I'm supposed be indifferent to suffering of people not white.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:23 am to BIGDAB
quote:
I think it's fair to include poor when describing black communities this way. there are middle class black neighborhoods that exist in this country, that you never hear anything about, because nothing ever happens there.
I don't disagree, but there aren't a lot of stable, middle class black communities in America. There are some, and there will be more, but I live in Atlanta, with probably the highest concentration of middle class black people in America, save perhaps DC.
I struggle to think of a majority-black area that is trending upward. Atlantans experience how this works in a way few other Americans do. My hometown is trending more and more minority, and that trend has happened in a sad and openly hostile manner. We went from being one of the wealthier counties in the country to being an afterthought.
It's sad for us, but it's also sad for the black families that moved there looking for a better life.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:27 am to teke184
Map of looting locations
List of businesses hit-
So far:
** QuickTrip
** Walmart
** Kmart
** County Shoe Carnival
** Foot Locker
** PNC Bank
** Hibbetts Sports
** Beauty Supply and Wig Store
** Family Dollar
** Boost Mobile
** DTLR
** Taco Bell
** Remy Beauty Supply
** Cricket Wireless
** Phillips 66
** Energy Express
** Pawn Shop
** Target
** JC Wireless
** Firestone
** Dollar General
** Up N Up Fashion
** Several Burglaries
** T-Mobile
** Second QuikTrip
** Shoe Carnival in South St. Louis City
LINK
My story above was a bit off. The local news says all of the looters had criminal records but most were from outside Ferguson, not ALL from outside Ferguson.
This post was edited on 8/12/14 at 10:30 am
Posted on 8/12/14 at 10:27 am to BIGDAB
quote:
Having said that I think a lot of the problems you see in large urban areas and some rural ones stem from black folk being marginalized through racist laws and policies. However, I also feel that after the large scale fight for civil rights ended a lot of the "talented tenth" turned their backs on the people in the "hood". Some of the best and brightest left, while the worse off stayed behind.
That requires a lot of leaps for me. I do agree that mandatory minimums and incarcerating generations is a problem and a disproportionate impact on black men.
Nonetheless, blaming laws for someone's actions that are entirely unrelated to the laws is a really big stretch. Contribution I may buy, causation I do not.
The idea that people are turning their back on others in the hood is interesting. What should they do? Why stay in a bad neighborhood with bad schools, bad housing, bad crime, etc.? I think there is some legitimacy to the argument that more people should, but if I'm an educated black man with a family to care for, I'm not focused on changing my neighborhood, I'm focused on making sure my kids are able to surpass what I've accomplished.
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