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Message
re: Libertarians: how much power should employers have in firing workers?
Posted on 12/27/13 at 10:29 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 12/27/13 at 10:29 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
No, but i don't think it is terrible to give me a few weeks notice in order to get a new job, save some money for unemployment time.
Generally, if you have to let someone go for not showing up for work or stealing money, you don't want them around a couple of weeks.
0
Posted on 12/27/13 at 10:38 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Should private companies be allowed to fire workers over race or gender? Should there be laws that allow workers to be notified reasonably well before the decision is made?
Race, gender, hell if they don't like the color of your hair. Employers should have the right to employ whom they choose, or not. They're in business to produce, not be a social experiment.
No laws should require a time frame on how much advance warning you give. Most of the ones I fire, they SHOULD know it's coming ahead of time, but they never seem to figure it out till I tell them I need their badge.
Posted on 12/27/13 at 11:39 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
As stated, if a person is likely to fire based on any protected class, they probably aren't inclined to hire those individuals in the 1st place.
Now, there are cases where a new manager comes in and may be prone to cleaning house of individuals and groups. I don't see how to stop that. A manager can always find a way to get rid of someone if they want them gone. All it takes is good documentation and patience.
Ultimately, you can't regulate how people think & how they think can directly relate fo how they treat people if a person lacks self awareness and self control.
That said, I've seen very few cases of true discrimination in my HR time., mostly involving females in the job and pregnancy potential and elderly discrimination.
I believe that a business owner should be able to employ whomever he wishes. There are some who wouldn't hire me bc I am female but I wouldn't want to be hired for a quota and have to work for people who didn't want me there. I'd much rather know that the company who hires me wants me there for my skill set.
Now, there are cases where a new manager comes in and may be prone to cleaning house of individuals and groups. I don't see how to stop that. A manager can always find a way to get rid of someone if they want them gone. All it takes is good documentation and patience.
Ultimately, you can't regulate how people think & how they think can directly relate fo how they treat people if a person lacks self awareness and self control.
That said, I've seen very few cases of true discrimination in my HR time., mostly involving females in the job and pregnancy potential and elderly discrimination.
I believe that a business owner should be able to employ whomever he wishes. There are some who wouldn't hire me bc I am female but I wouldn't want to be hired for a quota and have to work for people who didn't want me there. I'd much rather know that the company who hires me wants me there for my skill set.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 6:00 am to SoulGlo
quote:
addadicktome
Posted on 12/28/13 at 7:59 am to Zach
quote:
Quotas. If Company X had 100 employees and all of them were white the DOJ would be on them like a Labrador Retriever on a nest of squirrels.
It would not matter that all 100 whites were the best qualified. They would have to protect themselves by hiring unqualified blacks.
bullshite....there is no such thing as a hiring quota. If there were complaints filed that the company was not hiring minorities then those complaints may or may not be investigated....depending on the number of complaints, the severity and the world load of the people who do the investigation. I was the general manager of a multi-discipline engineering/specialty contracting firm years ago and we had on average about 130 employees and from time to time that number would swell to 300+ and there were LOTS of time that all of those jobs were filled by white males....not a minority in the lot. We did work on all sorts of public and private sector work and there was never a problem and never a question asked. Hiring quotas are myths.....they do not exist....
Posted on 12/28/13 at 8:14 am to Zach
quote:
Quotas. If Company X had 100 employees and all of them were white the DOJ would be on them like a Labrador Retriever on a nest of squirrels.
It would not matter that all 100 whites were the best qualified. They would have to protect themselves by hiring unqualified blacks.
Why would they have to protect themselves by hiring unqualified black people? There is no law nor any precedent that would require a company to hire an unqualified employee. This is what is wrong with this issue....so many people are convinced this is the case when it simply is not. There are MANY, MANY, MANY companies who do make a concerted effort to hire a diverse workforce because they feel it is in their best interest to do so (avoiding litigation is one of many reasons). Just because they hire a minority over a white male does not mean that the minority person is not qualified. No doubt, though, that the white dude who isn't hired will most likely make this claim. I have heard it from so many white men that it simply falls on deaf ears....any time they have missed out on a job opportunity because a woman or a black person was hired it was because of race and the person who was hired was not qualified at all other than their status as a minority.
I have a good friend who swears up and down that he was discriminated against by TVA because they hired a black woman over him for a job he applied for. This guy has spent about 20 years and I can't guess how much money fighting this travesty of justice. He has never won anything at all and other than the current shyster attorney he has there is no one ever remotely interested in the case. The job was for an engineering technician and did not require a degree in engineering...but when the black woman, with a degree in civil engineering from Georgia Tech, applied, she was the obvious choice for the position. This makes no difference to my buddy...he was discriminated against and the woman wasn't as qualified as he was.
There is no such thing as a hiring quota.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 8:40 am to germandawg
quote:
There is no such thing as a hiring quota.
EEOC website says you're WRONG
"In Hazelwood School District v. U.S., the Supreme Court rules that a plaintiff can establish a prima facie case of class hiring discrimination through the presentation of statistical evidence by comparing the racial composition of an employer's workforce with the racial composition of the relevant labor market. The court explains that absent discrimination, an employer's workforce should reflect the composition of the employer's applicant pool.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 8:57 am to Ole War Skule
quote:
an employer's workforce should reflect the composition of the employer's applicant pool.
If the court had ruled that the "employer's workforce SHALL reflect the composition of the employer's applicant pool" then we would have a quota. By using the word "should" the court hasn't placed any sort of hard requirement that there must be a quota.....
Posted on 12/28/13 at 8:59 am to Scruffy
quote:
Yes, employers should be allowed to fire anyone for anything.
This. Full freedom of association should be restored to the level it was before the Civil Rights Act.
I share Goldwater's opposition.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 9:02 am to germandawg
quote:
If the court had ruled that the "employer's workforce SHALL reflect the composition of the employer's applicant pool" then we would have a quota. By using the word "should" the court hasn't placed any sort of hard requirement that there must be a quota.....
the effect is ecactly the same whether we say quota or guidelines that will result if a fine if not reached...you're hiding behind wordplay and I'm pretty sure you know it
Posted on 12/28/13 at 9:07 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Not a libertarian, but you should pretty much get to fire who you want. It's fricking bullshite if you're basically forced to hold a private contract with someone; you should be able to sever it when you need to
Posted on 12/29/13 at 8:54 am to Ole War Skule
quote:
the effect is ecactly the same whether we say quota or guidelines that will result if a fine if not reached...you're hiding behind wordplay and I'm pretty sure you know it
I am sort of but the fact remains that there is no requirement whatsoever for a private sector employee to hire anyone. This is a myth that is ongoing and sustained by all sorts of anecdotal evidence but not by facts. If you are a private sector employer there is no requirement that you hire anyone.
If your workforce does not generally reflect your applicant pool it is an indication that there may be some sort of discrimination going on...it could be unconscious. This is not to say that if you have 10 white employees and had 5 black applicants that you have discriminated against anyone OR will be forced to hire one of the black applicants. What it may do is lead to further investigation.
If you are advertising for help and take applications from 100's of black people but never hire a single one then you are subject to closer scrutiny should anyone complain.
If you think about it as an organization you would want to know what was going on if this were happening. How is it possible that you need 25 people, take applications from 500, 50 of whom happen to be black, and not a single one of those black people were as qualified as the white folks you hired (purely hypothetical)? It may be that you have a problem in your recruitment process that is severely limiting your exposure to qualified applicants. As an organization you would want to have as many qualified individuals to pick from as possible. If for some reason one of the processes your HR people were using was limiting the number of qualified applicants and that limitation was clearly divided along racial lines you would want to know this for many reasons. None of those reasons, however, are to be blamed on any sort of quota because no such quota exists.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 9:10 am to germandawg
quote:
Hiring quotas are myths.....they do not exist....
Yes, they do. WK Hospital hires 100s of staff; over 1,000. At my wife's there are 10 techs that work in the lab. 1 black. After months of the whites complaining to management that the black girl refused to get her allotment of tests done, leaving it to the others to pick up the slack; management informed them that her job performance was irrelevant. She could not be fired because they cannot have an all white staff.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 10:32 am to Zach
quote:
Yes, they do. WK Hospital hires 100s of staff; over 1,000. At my wife's there are 10 techs that work in the lab. 1 black. After months of the whites complaining to management that the black girl refused to get her allotment of tests done, leaving it to the others to pick up the slack; management informed them that her job performance was irrelevant. She could not be fired because they cannot have an all white staff.
bullshite....but what you are describing is an internal, organizational thing....nothing required by law. There are no laws that require any private employer to hire anyone...none. Hiring quotas do not exist....
I would bet that there is nothing at all true about the anecdote that you are relaying. I don't doubt for a second that there are people involved who would tell this for the truth but I will guarantee you that management never told anyone anything at all about the woman's performance and her race...it did not happen. Before you fly off the handle and get pissed about me saying you lying know that this is not what I am saying....I am saying that you are relaying bad information. Your wife has probably done the same thing....someone she works with probably started this rumor and it is now an accepted fact....but it did not happen and will not happen.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 11:19 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Should private companies be allowed to fire workers over race or gender?
I think you know what the libertarian answer to that is.
Why even ask?
If they had their way it would be 1800.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 1:39 pm to germandawg
quote:
bullshite....but what you are describing is an internal, organizational thing....nothing required by law.
The organization does not hire incompetents due to race because they are altruistic. They do it for protection from lawsuits and attacks by the EEOC and the DOJ.
quote:
I would bet that there is nothing at all true about the anecdote that you are relaying. I don't doubt for a second that there are people involved who would tell this for the truth but I will guarantee you that management never told anyone anything at all about the woman's performance and her race...it did not happen.
I don't really give a shite whether you think it is true or not. I know that it's true. And the reason the black girl continued to frick up is because she was informed of the policy by another black in radiology. She knew that she could not be fired.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 1:46 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
If they had their way it would be 1800.
Maybe it would be 2200. More people have evolved beyond requiring assistance than you liberals give credit. Still, doesn't stop you from making more people dependent.
The future may be much different than you outdated liberals think.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 4:40 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Should private companies be allowed to fire workers over race or gender?
Yes. Private property in the private sector, they can do whatever they want.
quote:
Should there be laws that allow workers to be notified reasonably well before the decision is made?
This is impractical.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 10:57 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Maybe it would be 2200
I guess if you think Jesus was born in 400 BC it could.
quote:
More people have evolved beyond requiring assistance than you liberals give credit. Still, doesn't stop you from making more people dependent.
Are you babbling about anything in particular?
I've heard all the slogans before.
If I ever decide to write AI programs for fun I'll start with a libertarian because it will be the easiest. In response to anything said, I just have to randomly combine phrases like "small government" and "personal responsibility" into (mostly) grammatically correct sentences - and I've got a libertarian AI.
Posted on 12/29/13 at 10:58 pm to Sentrius
quote:
Private property in the private sector, they can do whatever they want.
No they can't.
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