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re: John Kelly brings truth to the table for all to see.. more deaths than 12 years of Vietnam
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:15 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
do you know how many people have their economic viability destroyed in this country based on simple possession convictions?
Perhaps they should not have voluntarily engaged in illegal drug activity.
Good message to get out: "Don't want to frick yourself and everyone around you ... leave drugs alone. First-class ticket to fricking LOSERVILLE."
1
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:15 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Essentially that argument is that a law is bad because breaking the law leads to ruined lives for the lawbreakers.
The argument is the overall cost to these people and society at large from their incarceration is not yielding enough benefit to society.
It's an argument for re-thinking and re-addressing our current failing drug policy. Spent billions, haven't made an impact on addiction rates.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:19 am to Lakeboy7
quote:
We should mount a military type struggle against drugs, maybe like a war on drugs or something.
Nah. We should just make them all legal. Then nobody would be taking them.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:21 am to MSMHater
quote:
Oh, don't give me that shite. You're choosing to look at a fraction of a window of time in the war on drugs.
In choosing to look at the time when it doubled, we can set in motion the needed changes to reduce those deaths by half.
quote:
Drug and DEA enforcement policy under Obama did not differ from Reagan, Bush, Clinton, or W.
Yes it did.
quote:
And his "open borders" did not precipitate our failure in the drug war
Yes it did... Cartels used that much like Isis and terrorist used the refugee process..... just at a higher rate
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:22 am to MSMHater
quote:
But locks up an exponential more number of users than cartel members. Wierd. Why punish the victims, if he truly believes what he says? This post was edited on 4/19 at 10:37 am
This is modern mythology. It's compelling mythology. But it's mythology.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:22 am to MButterfly
quote:
And his "open borders" did not precipitate our failure in the drug war
Yes it did
Last question and reply, I promise.
Were we "winning" the WOD before the Obama presidency?
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:23 am to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
We can however control the demand by placing those who use drugs into jail
which is clearly working
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:23 am to pvilleguru
quote:
You can make the crime disappear by no longer making it a crime.
Exactly. That is the dynamic that goes on in countries that legalize drugs and then people try to point out statistics that show this lowers drug use. It's a shell game. You can't point to statistics that are not being compiled. It does not prove less drug use.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:26 am to MButterfly
MButterfly
I appreciate your passion about this issue. I haven't gotten high since college (1980s).
When you speak of what needs to be changed what is your opinion on this?
Several points have been made that are valid.
-The war does not appear to have done much.
-Government regulation and laws appears to exacerbated the problem in some ways.
-Too many people incarcerated, etc.
What are some ideas you have for changing this situation?
Serious and honest question.
I appreciate your passion about this issue. I haven't gotten high since college (1980s).
When you speak of what needs to be changed what is your opinion on this?
Several points have been made that are valid.
-The war does not appear to have done much.
-Government regulation and laws appears to exacerbated the problem in some ways.
-Too many people incarcerated, etc.
What are some ideas you have for changing this situation?
Serious and honest question.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:26 am to navy
quote:
leave drugs alone
Here is the fundamental disconnect.
Americans fricking love drugs and they are not going to stop using them, ever. It doesnt matter what you do or how much money and manpower you expend Americans are going to do drugs.
You dont have to run up a white flag but that needs to be the starting point.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:27 am to MSMHater
quote:
Were we "winning" the WOD before the Obama presidency?
Hard to tell with no definition of what 'winning' would constitute. A starting point my be to look at whether drug use was going up, down or staying the same as a percentage of the population.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:30 am to Lakeboy7
quote:
Americans fricking love drugs and they are not going to stop using them, ever. It doesnt matter what you do or how much money and manpower you expend Americans are going to do drugs.
I include alcohol in your statement. Just because someone's drug of choice was made legal doesn't mean you've taken some moral high ground over a pill popper. Both love to get fricked up.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:32 am to Duke
quote:
The argument is the overall cost to these people and society at large from their incarceration is not yielding enough benefit to society.
It's an argument for re-thinking and re-addressing our current failing drug policy. Spent billions, haven't made an impact on addiction rates.
So now you want to use billions more to create a network of hundreds of thousands of rehabs to get you off your habit. The success rate is not promising.
What if we followed a better solution. Like actually treat the cartels like the Nazis and declare war on them.
At the same time declare those cartel gangs terrorists organizations.
Then force them to work for their food behind bars for the length of their lock up time.
Actually address the inner city issues
Spend the money in school education. Put national guardsmen in places where gang members are hanging out at schools.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:32 am to skullhawk
quote:
I include alcohol in your statement.
Absolutely.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:33 am to Duke
quote:You could make the same argument about anything that is currently considered illegal. What of the cost of going to prison at all? It greatly lowers the livelihood of anyone who gets out. It produces prejudice towards convicts and makes it difficult for them to get hired in good-paying jobs. Certain crimes lead to revocation of certain rights, such as the right to own a firearm for personal protection. Is it right that a person's life can be essentially destroyed because he stole a car? Is the value of a person's livelihood less than or equal to the value of a car?
The argument is the overall cost to these people and society at large from their incarceration is not yielding enough benefit to society.
It's an argument for re-thinking and re-addressing our current failing drug policy. Spent billions, haven't made an impact on addiction rates.
What it boils down to is an argument that it sucks for people who currently break the law to have to suffer the consequences of breaking the law. It completely disregards personal responsibility.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:35 am to Lakeboy7
quote:
Here is the fundamental disconnect.
Americans fricking love drugs and they are not going to stop using them, ever. It doesnt matter what you do or how much money and manpower you expend Americans are going to do drugs.
And have since it was founded. Marijuana, opium, cocaine, ALCOHOL. These are not new substances. They have been used and abused since this country was formed. When, and why, did we start locking people up for their use?
This post was edited on 4/19/17 at 11:36 am
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:39 am to MSMHater
quote:
Last question and reply, I promise.
No need so long as we are having a non destructive conversation...
quote:
Were we "winning" the WOD before the Obama presidency?
Not in all areas.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:42 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You could make the same argument about anything that is currently considered illegal.
You can, and probably should.
If there is more macro benefit to enforcing a ban on car theft than the cost of those people being imprisoned, then you continue with having the consequence in place.
In the case of drug possession, is the benefit of reduced drug use through imprisonment worth the social cost of their imprisonment. It doesn't appear to have made much of a dent in drug use or addiction rates, while bearing the cost of imprisonment, drug enforcement, making the market of selling addictive substances even more lucrative through the increased risk of distribution for the black market actors, and the increased violence due to violence being the only means of enforcing a contract in a black market.
quote:
What it boils down to is an argument that it sucks for people who currently break the law to have to suffer the consequences of breaking the law.
Nope. It boils down to an argument we should change the law because it does more harm than good.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:42 am to MSMHater
quote:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary John Kelly has largely blamed Latin American drug cartels for the unprecedented 52,000-plus drug overdose deaths in America during 2015 alone
Start handing Life without Parole to doctors and pharmacists and maybe it will actually work as a deterrent to handing out opiods like they're candy.
It's not super effective in fighting illegal drugs but a doctor has a hell of a lot more to lose than the average gangbanger.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 11:43 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Essentially that argument is that a law is bad because breaking the law leads to ruined lives for the lawbreakers.
yes. the effects are completely disproportional to the alleged impact of the crime (again, i'm talking solely about legitimate possession cases)
do you think the response of stripping voting rights, gun rights, and creating a scarlet letter for any future job is proportional to possessing a hydrocodone without a prescription? because that's the reality of our current CJ system in this area
quote:
If you don't like the laws petition your representatives to get them changed
what do you think my criticisms are aimed to do, exactly?
you're criticizing me criticizing a law while telling me, in the same response, to criticize laws i don' like
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