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Message
re: Interesting new research data on guns in America
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:33 am to lsuroadie
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:33 am to lsuroadie
quote:
Folks are going to read into this what they want to
Exactly. Those who want to see race will see race. I can make just as strong of an argument that we have a problem with violence in poor communities. All depends on what variable you choose to focus on.
0
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:36 am to mmcgrath
quote:
The OP said that violence fell among black people in 7 states and only dropped for white people in 4... how did you draw your conclusions based on that???
are we assuming both began from the same starting points?
quote:
The problem happens when "responsible" gun owners no longer own them.
do you think your typical gun owner is going to slum around and sell their gun on the street?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:36 am to lsuroadie
That's like saying in a bag with 100 marbles (45 red, 45 black marbles, and 10 white) you remove 1/3 of all the marbles (66 marbles remaining) that you see a bigger decrease in black marbles than you do in white marbles from the remainder of the bag.
black marbles = 0.33 x 45 = 30 = 30-45 = -15! good!
white marbles = 0.33 x 10 = 6 = 6-10 = -4! bad!
Black marbles show greater change! White marbles are bad! Look how much better black marbles changed!
black marbles = 0.33 x 45 = 30 = 30-45 = -15! good!
white marbles = 0.33 x 10 = 6 = 6-10 = -4! bad!
Black marbles show greater change! White marbles are bad! Look how much better black marbles changed!
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:37 am to KG6
quote:
Yes there is probably an equal about of white crime when put in the same conditions. But there aren't as many white people in the same condition.
^ This
Why is there such an effort to make it seems like statistics, social classes, class levels....are all equal across the board?
This country's real problem, is that it tip toes around anything and everything (truth, facts, statistics) out of fear of offending people.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:38 am to KG6
quote:
Yes there is probably an equal about of white crime when put in the same conditions.
You are saying that if you control for race, low socioeconomics will still lead to more crime. This sentence argues in favor of America having a poor community violence problem, not necessarily a black community violence problem.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:38 am to dcrews
quote:
This country's real problem, is that it tip toes around anything and everything (truth, facts, statistics) out of fear of offending people.
It's a problem but not the problem .
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:40 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:Or perhaps they are poor because they are violent and incapable of participating in society.
This sentence argues in favor of America having a poor community violence problem
This is the problem with correlation "studies". They tell you nothing about the cause.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:40 am to germandawg
quote:
You can't find anything other than anecdotal evidence that violence is more prevalent in black communities because they are black communities because no such evidence exists.
well this just shifts the same discussion to another variable. you're using economic factors
ok
why are black communities so often poor?
quote:
Ya'll make this same claim about black communities and public assistance, claiming that skin color is the reason the number of people in such communities receive some sort of public assistance at higher rates than those on white neighborhoods....again true if you compare the two on skin color....but if you look at economic factors alone you will see that income level has far more to do with receiving public assistance than does race.
again
same discussion. different variable
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:43 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Or perhaps they are poor because they are violent and incapable of participating in society.
Almost unequivocally no to this.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:44 am to baybeefeetz
quote:
It's a problem but not the problem .
In my opinion, it's the major reason we cannot progress as a "melting pot" nation. We cannot honestly and legitimately talk about and resolve issues with one another because everyone is too scared to of the social backlash that being "honest and straight up" will cause.
Race relations are a huge example. Any thoughts about how the lower class black community can improve as a people/culture, are met with cries of racism and unfairness.
Same with lower class whites. Now you're just a poor hating, evil rich guy.
No one is being honest with themselves and it's causing (and has caused) huge issues with progress socially, economically, etc...
We are a country that will sacrifice the greater, long term good, to appease the minority.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:47 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
You are saying that if you control for race, low socioeconomics will still lead to more crime. This sentence argues in favor of America having a poor community violence problem, not necessarily a black community violence problem.
by pure numbers alone i just can't see the rates being even, but i'd like to see the discussion in statistical form
but, like i said above, that's just shifting the argument to another variable. i agree poor people are more violent than non-poor people. then we have to ask why black americans are so disproportionately poor? why are latinos? why aren't asians? why aren't black immigrants? etc
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:48 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
why black americans are so disproportionately poor? why are latinos? why aren't asians? why aren't black immigrants? etc
This is also shifting the argument. Ijs
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:50 am to germandawg
quote:
I have looked and can't find if this study included economic factors. I would bet a coca-cola that poor white people get shot at about the same rate as poor black people.
Poor white people tend to live in rural environments versus poor black people often live in urban environments. Population density alone makes the above quote unrealistic.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:50 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
This is also shifting the argument. Ijs
well if the discussion goes from violence to poverty/affluence, then we can ask the same question in the second group
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:58 am to SlowFlowPro
Just calling it what it is 
Posted on 9/23/14 at 9:58 am to TbirdSpur2010
what was the second shift?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 10:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
then we have to ask why black americans are so disproportionately poor? why are latinos? why aren't asians? why aren't black immigrants? etc
This is a completely different discussion than gun control. Unless you truly believe that for some reason the race of a person governs their actions that lead them to be violent and make decisions that lead them into poor socioeconomic settings. But that IS racist. That's disproved by the black immigrants not following suit. It's a result of how that group was treated (both due to segregation and through failed social programs that continue to breed individuals that make poor choices). I truly believe that if somehow the roles were reversed and whites lived through a history that left them in the same confines of black culture in America today, the results would be similar.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 10:04 am to lsuroadie
quote:
Aside from geography, race/ethnicity also played a role in gun death rates. The national rate of gun deaths was twice as high among black people as it was among whites. The researchers noted, however, that the number of black people killed as a result of gun violence fell in seven states and the District of Columbia. Meanwhile, gun deaths involving white people fell in only four states.
Where is the interesting part?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 10:10 am to SlowFlowPro
I'm not attempting to shift anything
Posted on 9/23/14 at 10:10 am to KG6
quote:
This is a completely different discussion than gun control.
how is it removed when we were discussing violence among blacks/whites, which became a poverty discussion between blacks and whites?
quote:
Unless you truly believe that for some reason the race of a person governs their actions that lead them to be violent and make decisions that lead them into poor socioeconomic settings. But that IS racist.
i don't believe race has anything to do with it
that doesn't mean that proclivity for certain actions/behaviors amongst groups can't shift when you divide groups into different races
and i mean that is statistical data and objective observation
but i only made that digression when the discussion shifted from violence to economics
once that shift is made, it's the same discussion, just in a different subject area (economics/poverty)
that was my point
quote:
I truly believe that if somehow the roles were reversed and whites lived through a history that left them in the same confines of black culture in America today, the results would be similar.
well, asians and latinos, statistically, kind of disprove this notion
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