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Buffett (S&P actually) trounces Hedge Funds

Posted on 2/4/15 at 5:18 pm
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 5:18 pm
Buffett 1mm bet with hedge funds

VFIAX +63.5%
Hedge Funds +19.6%

Another solid argument against amateur investors buying mutual funds. Fees on the VFIAX are only .05% vs 1% average on managed funds. Fees on insurance products are much higher in most cases.

Amateur investors, mutual fund sales people, stock brokers, and especially whole/universial/whatever life insurance salesmen have very, very little chance of beating the market over the long term.

Don't waste your time and money trying to find a broker or money manager. Buy a broad based ETF for long term investing or saving.

Amateurs have almost no chance of finding a mutual fund that will beat the market over the long term.

fire away
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 5:28 pm to
The bull market started in year 2 of Buffet's bet. A smart guy. But also misleads his shareholders. Like derivatives are evil, except the time he lost his shareholders money in short silver contracts. A lot of money. He explained the loss as hedging. He basically lied. LULZ.

I'm not sure if over a 50 year time period the basic assertion is, or is not accurate. It very well could be. And I'm not suggesting that Buffet is an idiot. I'm just suggesting between his misleading statements and shareholder reports, and the fact he loves dividend payers, but doesn't pay a dividend, he is not to be believed or followed 100%.

I think at some point in retirement most will need some sort of dividend income. His shares for some folks that own them won't necessarily be a stock to grow old with.

Anyway, I own his stock. And this is entirely my opinion. Some people pee themselves over anything he says without thinking it through. I don't. Not for him, or anyone. As you shouldn't with anyone either. Including me.
This post was edited on 2/4/15 at 5:30 pm
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 5:36 pm to
the bet/story wasn't about Berkshire, it was a Vanguard 500 index vs hedge funds. his point was that most investors, not he, are much better off in broad based ETFs than trying to find a money manager/mutual fund that probably won't even beat the market.

the guy irritates the Cr*p out of me with his tax the rich BS now that he's got more than he can count, so I'm not really a Buffet fan myself.

it wasn't about Buffett, it was about small investors getting fleeced by money managers

(don't tell them, but this was just another jab in my ongoing skirmish with the posters here who put people in expensive mutual funds, annuities, and life insurance policies that don't serve their needs)
This post was edited on 2/4/15 at 5:46 pm
Posted by Shepherd88
Member since Dec 2013
4579 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 6:28 pm to
Indexed funds are just like flying in a plane on auto pilot. Things are going good when things are going good.. But when a storm hits you don't want that plane on auto pilot anymorw. Look at USO for example, it fell off its index while oil was crashing.

Most FA's and CFP's will certainly tell you we're not here to beat the market. We're here to manage emotions and achieve results. While you, Ole Skule, may be comfortable with 40% losses and double digits returns, most folks are not.

So to blanket recommend everyone be in an indexed fund is irresponsible and bad advice.

Also to combat your indexed fund analogy I can show you proposals that would prove a withdraw strategy through managed funds is a much more sensible option with higher growth returns vs an indexed portfolio. Which is the grand scheme of things is where it matters, not outliving your money. However, it's not worth my time to post such analogy here.
Posted by barry
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
50337 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 6:49 pm to
If people could regularly beat the market, then they would just be traders with their own money, instead of trading other people's money and taking fees. People can beat the market but it's people that have inside information.

I only trade O&Get stocks with a small portion of my portfolio because j feel I know more than most investors. That's about as far as I'd recommend for people.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 7:48 pm to
I never have liked mutual funds. I like individual stocks and typically do better than the S&P.

A good stock that has out performed the S&P is WRB. I measure performance in terms of $10000 invested in one investment vs another over a time. LINK

This post was edited on 2/4/15 at 8:03 pm
Posted by iAmBatman
The Batcave
Member since Mar 2011
12382 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 7:51 pm to
You sound like a gambler that says they win more than they lose
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 8:01 pm to
quote:

You sound like a gambler that says they win more than they lose


Well I understand what I buy. I never can tell what I buy with a mutual fund and never know what a fund manager will decide to do.

I rarely own over 3 or 4 stocks and can explain exactly why I own them.

Here is a thread I started about 3 I own now. I am upside down on two but reasons to own them remain and I will own them till those reasons are not there. LINK
This post was edited on 2/4/15 at 8:07 pm
Posted by raw dog
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2011
483 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 8:17 pm to
A coal stock? Interesting.

"Even though demand will not increase significantly"...

Demand for coal is decreasing at an increasing rate.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 8:25 pm to
quote:

A coal stock? Interesting.

"Even though demand will not increase significantly"...

Demand for coal is decreasing at an increasing rate.


A very good play in the coal business. Coal is not going to disappear. CLD may very well be the last man standing in the PRB. They have the best balance sheet and are operating profitably and are generating cash.

CLD Is very, very cheap. Here is a good write up on it.

LINK

BTW one of the best investments I ever made was PM in the late nineties when Clinton was going after them. Like coal cigarette sales were falling. PM was beat up and people were saying cigarettes were going to disappear. That didn't happen and I tripled my money on PM over a 8 year period.

CLD could easily triple with a very small increase in the price of coal.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 8:46 pm to
Coal usage and stocks.

LINK

Coal use was actually more in 2013 than 2012 and exports were very large. I expect the strong dollar will hurt exports but not much.
Posted by raw dog
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2011
483 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 8:57 pm to
Respectfully disagree but good luck. I don't have a dog in the fight.
This post was edited on 2/4/15 at 8:58 pm
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 2/4/15 at 9:14 pm to
quote:

Respectfully disagree but good luck. I don't have a dog in the fight.


Ok with me. The point of the post relative to the OP is that I try my best to understand what I own. I can't do that with mutual funds and I much prefer individual stocks and have no particular desire for a lot of stock diversity.

The CLD story is simple to me. It is a company selling for a huge discount to book that has several very clear competitive advantages. It operates in a business that has supply shrinking faster than demand is shrinking and a very small price increase means a very nice increase in earnings for the company.----That is a very safe, very simple in my view reason to invest. I don't get that kind of simple, safe investment from mutual funds.
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 2/5/15 at 4:13 am to
quote:

Look at USO for example, it fell off its index while oil was crashing.

Has nothing to do with anything I said.

quote:

So to blanket recommend everyone be in an indexed fund is irresponsible and bad advice.


Has nothing to do with anything I said.

quote:

I can show you proposals that would prove a withdraw strategy through managed funds is a much more sensible option with higher growth returns vs an indexed portfolio

You had time to refute points I never made, but don't have time to back up the one relevant statement you made? I'll have to assume it's BS.

The facts are that over long periods of time 10-30+ years, 90-98% of money managers get beat by the indexes they tell their clients they are trying to beat.

I'm sincerely interested, as I"m sure others are, in hearing about your managed fund strategy beat the market when so very few others have.
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