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Message
How much innovation have we lost due to legal abortion?
Posted on 5/20/14 at 6:34 pm
Posted on 5/20/14 at 6:34 pm
There have been almost 56 million legal abortions since Roe vs Wade. 56,000,000
A common theme is that most of these people would have been in poverty, criminals, a drag on society, etc. One can make those assumptions but they simply aren't provable with 100% certainty (but it is an easy concept for people to embrace).
The other side is that within that 56,000,000 number there would have certainly been a percentage that contributed greatly to society, and if not those people directly perhaps their children today or in the future. Lets just say for argument that 0.025% of that population would have been important contributors to the country. That is 14,000 people that could have done great things.
Just presenting another view in opposition to the tired argument in paragraph #2.
A common theme is that most of these people would have been in poverty, criminals, a drag on society, etc. One can make those assumptions but they simply aren't provable with 100% certainty (but it is an easy concept for people to embrace).
The other side is that within that 56,000,000 number there would have certainly been a percentage that contributed greatly to society, and if not those people directly perhaps their children today or in the future. Lets just say for argument that 0.025% of that population would have been important contributors to the country. That is 14,000 people that could have done great things.
Just presenting another view in opposition to the tired argument in paragraph #2.
This post was edited on 5/21/14 at 6:22 am
13
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:06 pm to weagle99
And some would have been child molesters and shemale prostitutes. What's your point?
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:07 pm to weagle99
While I agree that we have likely lost many great minds (and this, among other things, is why I'm largely against abortion) by the same token we have likely lost thousands of murderers, rapists, child molesters and maybe even a Hitler or two.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
While I agree that we have likely lost many great minds (and this, among other things, is why I'm largely against abortion) by the same token we have likely lost thousands of murderers, rapists, child molesters and maybe even a Hitler or two.
If this is the justification for abortions than by all means sterilize all of mankind.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:14 pm to weagle99
We lost way more bad than good. This isn't the case to make for why abortion is bad.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:16 pm to Revelator
I didn't say it was a valid justification, I just said the OPs reasoning isn't as black/white as it might seem.
The best reasoning against abortion, in my opinion, is the irresponsible mindset it creates. The fact that it essentially functions as a form of birth control in the vast majority of cases is a terrible abuse of something that should only be used in very isolated instances.
The best reasoning against abortion, in my opinion, is the irresponsible mindset it creates. The fact that it essentially functions as a form of birth control in the vast majority of cases is a terrible abuse of something that should only be used in very isolated instances.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:22 pm to weagle99
Kind of a dumb argument. A lot of bad kids would have been born too.
Your argument suggests that women should just have as many babies as possible with the hope that some will be great innovators, without any regard for having the ability/desire to raise them in a good environment.
I think this is a very bad way to justify either support OR opposition to abortion.
Just think of how many great minds weren't born because of condoms...bad logic
Your argument suggests that women should just have as many babies as possible with the hope that some will be great innovators, without any regard for having the ability/desire to raise them in a good environment.
I think this is a very bad way to justify either support OR opposition to abortion.
Just think of how many great minds weren't born because of condoms...bad logic
This post was edited on 5/20/14 at 7:25 pm
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:30 pm to oklahogjr
quote:
We lost way more bad than good.
You have no way of knowing this with complete certainty.
But for sake of discussion, how many criminals would you trade, for say, a person who discovered the cure for cancer?
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:32 pm to weagle99
sigh let our weekly abortion thread commence.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:34 pm to weagle99
quote:
But for sake of discussion, how many criminals would you trade, for say, a person who discovered the cure for cancer?
Curing cancer outright would be the single biggest disaster in human history.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:35 pm to asurob1
Mother Teresa said it all when she told Slick Willy to his face, "It is a poverty to take the life of a child so that you may live as you wish."
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Roger Klarvin
How much innovation have we lost due to legal abortion?
quote:
But for sake of discussion, how many criminals would you trade, for say, a person who discovered the cure for cancer?
Curing cancer outright would be the single biggest disaster in human history.
i assume you have a reason for that (other than "jobs"), and i doubt you're an idiot, so i'd like to know why you think that ...
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:38 pm to weagle99
quote:
But for sake of discussion, how many criminals would you trade, for say, a person who discovered the cure for cancer?
how many fast food workers do you trade for the next hitler?
The point is we don't really know what we do know is outlawing abortion will drive the price up but it won't stop it from happening. Might as well allow access to the procedure to the dregs to try and slow the idiocracy at least a little bit.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:47 pm to tiderider
quote:
i doubt you're an idiot
quote:
i'd like to know why you think that
Some pretty advanced calculations have been done on this, anticipating the effects on population if certain causes of death plummeted or were eliminated.
Cancer kills about 9 million people in the world annually and single handidly drops the average lifespan across the globe by over 5 years. If eliminated cancer, the world's population would double roughly every 25 years.
At our current rate, the population will be between 13 to 16 billion by 2100. Taking cancer out of the equation, that number balloons to around 60 billion.
This planet cannot currently sustain anywhere close to that number of people.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:47 pm to weagle99
quote:
The other side is that within that 56,000,000 number there would have certainly been a percentage that contributed greatly to society, and if not those people directly perhaps their children today or in the future. Lets just say for argument that 0.25% of that population would have been important contributors to the country. That is 14,000 people that could have done great things.
And under your reasoning, there would be 55,996,000 people that could be out murdering, raping, molesting kids, stealing, and costing the tax payers tens of trillions more as well as more lost kids of productive citizens in the process.
I guarantee you if I could transport you to an alternate reality where every single one of those kids was born, once I transported you back from that reality, you would be all for abortions. I really don't think its a coincidence that starting in the 80s that violent crime started to take a downturn.
Seriously look at this chart:
Do you really think that with 57 million more unwanted kids on the street that these stats would be a reality? If anything, this graph would likely be turned upside down if your reality came to pass.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:48 pm to Revelator
quote:
If this is the justification for abortions than by all means sterilize all of mankind.
And you wonder why I think you're below average intelligence.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:54 pm to weagle99
quote:
You have no way of knowing this with complete certainty.
I can know with 99% certainty. Which type of kid is more likely to succeed: the kid who grows up in a loving middle class family, whose parents are still together, support their studies, and has one sibling; or the kid who hasn't seen his father in months, he's stuck living off of government cheese, his mother ignores him, his mother's boyfriend beats him, and he's got about a baker's dozen of siblings/half siblings? I'd say most of the victims of abortion come more from the later situation than the former.
This post was edited on 5/20/14 at 7:55 pm
Posted on 5/20/14 at 7:55 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Curing cancer outright would be the single biggest disaster in human history.
If it would bring both of my cancer death parents back then I would gladly welcome that disaster.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 8:00 pm to Homesick Tiger
quote:
If it would bring both of my cancer death parents back then I would gladly welcome that disaster.
Of course you would, because humans are selfish creatures.
The good of humanity however is a different matter.
Posted on 5/20/14 at 8:11 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
And under your reasoning, there would be 55,996,000 people that could be out murdering, raping, molesting kids, stealing, and costing the tax payers tens of trillions more as well as more lost kids of productive citizens in the process.
I guarantee you if I could transport you to an alternate reality where every single one of those kids was born, once I transported you back from that reality, you would be all for abortions. I really don't think its a coincidence that starting in the 80s that violent crime started to take a downturn.
...
Do you really think that with 57 million more unwanted kids on the street that these stats would be a reality? If anything, this graph would likely be turned upside down if your reality came to pass.
1) Tying the abortion rate to the murder rate is simplistic, and there are a lot of factors that go into that. First of all, the X per 1,000 numbers theoretically could remain constant as the population increases. And even if I grant you that many of these unborn children were conceived by destitute mothers, that doesn't mean that the abortion numbers skyrocket. Increase, maybe, but not skyrocket.
Additionally, the big reasons that the crime rate went down from the 1980s that we can quantify is continued economic recovery that began in 1983 and the decline of the crack cocaine epidemic. Saying that abortion contributed to that may be true, but it's still speculative.
2) Also, we're assuming that we would have 57 million more children. Right now, abortion is a backstop, the option of last resort. If abortion is no longer a backstop, birth control and the morning after pill become the backstops. Logic would suggest that usage of those things would increase.
Case in point: Ireland in 2012 had a 2.01 fertility rate. Poland had a 1.30 fertility rate. In both countries, abortion is legal under narrow circumstances but there is not "abortion-on-demand." In the USA, we had a 1.88 rate. So the idea that banning abortion is going to make the fertility rate soar is simply crap.
3) The idea that those who were aborted would have disproportionately been criminals is preposterous, but let's say for the sake of argument that it was 10%. It only takes one Norman Bourlag to dramatically increase the food supply through crop manipulation. It only takes one Steve Jobs to dramatically increase access to information. It only takes one guy to figure out how we frack in the ground and over time lower gas prices. It only takes one Ronald Reagan to provide the leadership we need to bring down a superpower. Within that 57 million, there were almost surely innovators and leaders who would have been extraordinarily beneficial to society. A shame for us that they were aborted.
4) In the end, either you believe life starts at conception or you don't. None of these other arguments matter compared to that pivotal question.
This post was edited on 5/20/14 at 8:13 pm
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