Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not | Page 9 | TigerDroppings.com

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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

be prepared to be unexpectedly surprised by the future, 90.

we haven't even gotten to whether i think it will become obsolete or not though

maybe i do






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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

do you think it will be able to be enforced in a cost effective manner

should have said, yes, but in a "cost-benefit positive" manner, and only over the long run. there'll be times like now, where we'll need to re-adjust policy driven by the rate of innovation






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ForeLSU
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

Sounds like a contract law argument.


I'm not making a legal argument at all, but a philosophical one. Software, music, art, etc. should be considered as just as tangible as a bucket of goo that someone produces in a factory.






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WikiTiger
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Member since Sep 2007
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


Do you believe there's significant value in derivative works?





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joshnorris14
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

Software, music, art, etc. should be considered as just as tangible as a bucket of goo that someone produces in a factory.


Except it's not. goo is not easily copyable.






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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


like do i think their value comes from the original? i don't know, at least partially





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WikiTiger
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Member since Sep 2007
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


No. I was asking if you think that a robust public domain actually adds value by allowing for derivative works.

In other words, one piece of art that samples from another piece of art. Is that valuable? It's often not possible with strict IP.

Or apply the same concept to academic papers and studies






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ForeLSU
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The Corner of Sanity and Madness
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

Except it's not. goo is not easily copyable.


it's a philosophical construct...I can cheat on my wife tomorrow, doesn't make it right






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ForeLSU
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The Corner of Sanity and Madness
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

No. I was asking if you think that a robust public domain actually adds value by allowing for derivative works.


it absolutely does, but shouldn't I have the right not to put my works in the public domain?






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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


ehh, hard for me to really gen up a solid opinion on that. art's value is subjective, great to some and worthless to others. i think that's even more true with derivative stuff.

if you're getting at stuff like logos (or like merchandise that "suggests" LSU but doesn't have the license), i don't think anything derivative there can really add value on the whole.

now for academic papers, the answer should be obvious. something making a tweak to a painting for satire's sake is objectively less useful than building on a research topic or adding new data.






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joshnorris14
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

it's a philosophical construct...I can cheat on my wife tomorrow, doesn't make it right


An idea doesn't exist in nature. It's an abstract. You can't own an idea.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

something making a tweak to a painting for satire's sake is objectively less useful


The movie Airplane! is an almost scene by scene remake/parody of the film Zero Hour. Is it not valuable?

The rap genre is probably 50% dependent on prior works. Is it not valuable?






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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

Is it not valuable?

airplane: it is, but how much less so would it be if it weren't for the prior work. would it even exist?
rap: it is, but same thing. although these are good points






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WikiTiger
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Member since Sep 2007
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


Airplane! may not be the best example because they did get permission, however, my point remains valid if you consider a hypothetical where they were unable to get permission





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WikiTiger
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


When I take off my idealistic AnCap hat and put on my pragmatic libertarian hat, I can tolerate some IP, but it should definitely be short. The founders set good terms, IMO. Modern day IP law is absolutely absurd.





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90proofprofessional
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


and the pragmatic must admit it is possible that administration cost coupled with the deadweight loss from the temp monopoly could easily wipe out the benefits

plus our laws and regulations are often made with goals other than efficiency in mind anyway

so this may all be a net negative, easily

i actually thought one of y'all would've made that case






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germandawg
Member since Sep 2012
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

It makes the incentive to innovate smaller. It promotes laziness.

If you invent something in the current system, you can live off of that success.

If you invent something in a system without IP, you have a small first in the market advantage and are compelled into constant innovation by competitors.


This could be said of all property. This entire debate stems from the fact that Libertarianism can't logically balance the books between unfettered capitalism and private property. It is on of many of the flaws in the ideology but it is significant and one that will cause most disciples of the religion of the free market want to shift the conversational direction toward the lack of rain and the incredible cold/heat that we are experiencing and away from the cracks in the armor of libertarianism.






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C
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

An idea doesn't exist in nature


I still struggle with that and reputation being vastly different as far as identity theft and trademark infringement.






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NC_Tigah
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Member since Sep 2003
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

if they can't actually profit or make real money doing it. meaningful innovation would cease or slow significantly.
Of course it would.
There is a plethora of material to demonstrate exactly that.

Basic human nature:
Why study, when cheating (stealing IP) on exams is free?
"Dude, I have as much right to your exam knowledge as you do."
The long term impact is significant, but instant gratification types don't focus on long term.

Living within the cocoon of an American IP stimulated world, it is easy to ignore the effects of decreased IP reward abroad on effective R&D. Most notable is that effect in communist and/or heavily socialist societies. The amount of original material generated via those countries is negligible. Like Josh and Wiki, they are happy to steal the work of others. But as with Josh and Wiki, there are limitations on their capacity because of that tact.

Josh, Wiki, and others of the ilk are essentially little kids pocketing a piece of candy or two from Wal-Mart, and as a result of that "freedom," dreaming of a day when Wal-Mart's Flat Screen TVs will be "free" as well.

In terms of costs, as is the case of any theft, costs are absorbed by the rest of us. Those costs are significant, and they extend beyond any simple financial costs circumvented by thievery. For example, instead of opensource software being routinely employed, we all have to endure the pita of closedsource crap as a direct result of intellectual piracy. In the case of Obama's forced EMR, or Medical enterprise software that closedsource cost impacts patients dearly. At some point Josh and Wiki will be patients too.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
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re: Regardless of whether you believe in the legitimacy of IP or not


quote:

An idea doesn't exist in nature. It's an abstract. You can't own an idea.
Of course it does!

In nature "ownership" is confined to life. In certain social examples, "ownership" may partially extend to domicile and pecking order.

One gazelle maintains the idea that lions might lurk in the tall grass, another gazelle does not. The former stays clear. The latter gets eaten.






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