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Message
re: which OBer open carrying in walmart scaried a customer
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:03 am to bulldog95
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:03 am to bulldog95
It's idiots like that that will ruin it for everyone else.
People think that just because they have a right to do something, which is protected in the Bill of Rights, that there can't be restrictions placed on that right.
But eventually similar restriction on our 1st Amendment right will be placed on our Second Amendment right.
TIME PLACE MANNER RESTRICTIONS
Limits that government can impose on the occasion, location, and type of individual expression in some circumstances.
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees Freedom of Speech. This guarantee generally safeguards the right of individuals to express themselves without governmental restraint. Nevertheless, the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment is not absolute. It has never been interpreted to guarantee all forms of speech without any restraint whatsoever. Instead, the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that state and federal governments may place reasonable restrictions on the time, place, and manner of individual expression. Time, place, and manner (TPM) restrictions accommodate public convenience and promote order by regulating traffic flow, preserving property interests, conserving the environment, and protecting the administration of justice.
There is a reason that you cannot yell "fire!" in a crowded place - it makes people severely uncomfortable and could induce panic. Similarly, I can see where the court may decide that walking through a crowded retail establishment open carrying an AR-15 would make people severely uncomfortable and could induce panic.
People think that just because they have a right to do something, which is protected in the Bill of Rights, that there can't be restrictions placed on that right.
But eventually similar restriction on our 1st Amendment right will be placed on our Second Amendment right.
TIME PLACE MANNER RESTRICTIONS
Limits that government can impose on the occasion, location, and type of individual expression in some circumstances.
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees Freedom of Speech. This guarantee generally safeguards the right of individuals to express themselves without governmental restraint. Nevertheless, the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment is not absolute. It has never been interpreted to guarantee all forms of speech without any restraint whatsoever. Instead, the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that state and federal governments may place reasonable restrictions on the time, place, and manner of individual expression. Time, place, and manner (TPM) restrictions accommodate public convenience and promote order by regulating traffic flow, preserving property interests, conserving the environment, and protecting the administration of justice.
There is a reason that you cannot yell "fire!" in a crowded place - it makes people severely uncomfortable and could induce panic. Similarly, I can see where the court may decide that walking through a crowded retail establishment open carrying an AR-15 would make people severely uncomfortable and could induce panic.
2
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:05 am to munchman
You really think oc is the same as walking into a store and waving a gun??? What a presumptive, reactionary, emotional little bitch you are.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:09 am to munchman
quote:
We ban things all the time, in our society, that we think may bring harm. ie. drugs
Hmmm.. But don't ban others... (alcohol, tobacco, pharmaceuticals)....hmmmm
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:10 am to munchman
quote:
We can keep our guns without waving them in front of peoples faces.
quote:
holstered gun on the hip
Quit sensationalizing
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:19 am to Whiskey Richard
He is nuts.
For every person you claim to be slapping people in the face with their pistol, thousands more OC normally. This notion of restricting rights because of a few isolated and bad cases is ridiculous. By your logic almost every thing will be banned and redistricted as with out question, someone, somewhere had their feelings hurt. Its that liberal logic of punish the entire class because Billy was bad.
And if folks actually understood the law there would be no need for over sensationalizing and emotional out bursts like those you claim who call the police because they saw a gun somewhere in public.
For every person you claim to be slapping people in the face with their pistol, thousands more OC normally. This notion of restricting rights because of a few isolated and bad cases is ridiculous. By your logic almost every thing will be banned and redistricted as with out question, someone, somewhere had their feelings hurt. Its that liberal logic of punish the entire class because Billy was bad.
And if folks actually understood the law there would be no need for over sensationalizing and emotional out bursts like those you claim who call the police because they saw a gun somewhere in public.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:24 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
walking through a crowded retail establishment
Private business can make that a non issue as they have the right to not let firearms on premises, just like you at your home.
Fact is, OC should be legal as it always has been. Of course that goes with being a normal person. I personally dont OC, I CC. But I will fight to keep thing free.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:50 am to H.M. Murdock
quote:
Private business can make that a non issue as they have the right to not let firearms on premises, just like you at your home.
Fact is, OC should be legal as it always has been. Of course that goes with being a normal person. I personally dont OC, I CC. But I will fight to keep thing free.
I'm just saying that in many cases these bozos walking around just to make a statement don't know how the law works and don't know that just because the 2nd Amend says "shall not be infringed" doesn't mean the courts can never put any restrictions on it - as they have for other rights enumerated in the BOR.
If we all observe appropriate time place manner restrictions ourselves, there would be no reason for the court to impose it on us.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:55 am to WildTchoupitoulas
So what's appropriate for you should be appropriate for everyone else? Got it
Posted on 2/17/14 at 9:56 am to H.M. Murdock
quote:
The sad part is we lose our rights when gun owners allow our rights to be stripped little by little till none remain.
I agree but you are going about it in the wrong manner backing those who open carry in Wal-Mart. Public opinion is split now but it doesn't take much to sway the sheeple of this nation one way or the other. If people continue to do stupid things like carry ARs around in high traffic areas and open carry in Wal-Mart opinion will likely start to sway toward more gun restrictions.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:04 am to munchman
quote:
concealed carry ought to be the law of the land, period
Then it better be free of permits and government fees.
Otherwise we definitely need to bring back the poll tax, too.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:08 am to DanTiger
quote:
agree but you are going about it in the wrong manner backing those who open carry in Wal-Mart. Public opinion is split now but it doesn't take much to sway the sheeple of this nation one way or the other. If people continue to do stupid things like carry ARs around in high traffic areas and open carry in Wal-Mart opinion will likely start to sway toward more gun restrictions.
The only reason I wouldn't open carry in Walmart would be because of the copious amount of uneducated "sheeple" walking around in there. Im not some gun toting hick, and I have seldom open carried, and when I have done so I was coming out of the woods. But I don't bat an eye at someone responsibly, nonchalantly carrying on his hip in public.
To me, this is issue is like most every other political issue out there. An issue with much gray area and variances. And then a bunch of people either jumping on one side of the argument or the other.. What happened to judging a situation or topic on an individual basis. This conversation went from OC'ing on the hip in a holster to having an AK slung over your shoulder in a high traffic area. These two issues are not comparable, and like was said earlier, you cant lump them all in the same category.
I would much rather see someone responsibly open carrying, than seeing a twitchy little dude CC'ing with the outline of a gun in his pants. "Oh why does he have to be a twitchy little dude?", you ask.. Because you are stereotyping every open carrier as an attention whoring, gun toting crazy person..
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:21 am to Whiskey Richard
Best post on this subject yet. 
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:22 am to Whiskey Richard
quote:
The only reason I wouldn't open carry in Walmart would be because of the copious amount of uneducated "sheeple" walking around in there. Im not some gun toting hick, and I have seldom open carried, and when I have done so I was coming out of the woods. But I don't bat an eye at someone responsibly, nonchalantly carrying on his hip in public.
To me, this is issue is like most every other political issue out there. An issue with much gray area and variances. And then a bunch of people either jumping on one side of the argument or the other.. What happened to judging a situation or topic on an individual basis. This conversation went from OC'ing on the hip in a holster to having an AK slung over your shoulder in a high traffic area. These two issues are not comparable, and like was said earlier, you cant lump them all in the same category.
I would much rather see someone responsibly open carrying, than seeing a twitchy little dude CC'ing with the outline of a gun in his pants. "Oh why does he have to be a twitchy little dude?", you ask.. Because you are stereotyping every open carrier as an attention whoring, gun toting crazy person..
I agree with all of this but I believe you need to recognize that perception is everything. Most people, even gun owners, are not comfortable with open carry it is simply something they tolerate. there are numerous gun owners in this country that own nothing but a shotgun and they have an opinion that can be swayed either way. Those are the people that stop the Feds from limiting gun rights and those are the people we need to worry about. If they decide to start voting with the other side the battle is lost. To those people there is little difference between open carrying a revolver and carrying an AR on a sling.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:24 am to DanTiger
Wow, some of you "gun/pro 2nd amendment" guys have already been won over by there BS.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:27 am to jorconalx
quote:
So what's appropriate for you should be appropriate for everyone else? Got it
Pretty much, yeah.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:32 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
so the real problem is creating public fear.
There is a clear line between public fear and public panic. Yelling "FIRE" repeatedly in a crowded building will create public panic. This is an example of an intentioned action with a predictable result and thus is illegal.
Intentionally open carrying and drawing attention to your firearm and yourself in an effort to create concern is intended to create a reaction and id foolhardy at best and illegal if the weapon is brandished.
However, going about your day and open carrying for those of us that carry every day, is an action with no intent of causing public panic. True it may create some public fear for some members of the public. But we have strived in this country to move away from governing against illogically feared persons and objects.
I could easily say that a group of young black men wearing all red and black clothing with gang tats on their arms and necks, or a group of young Hispanics with clear gang tats and corresponding apparel, or a couple of skinny un-kept nervous mid 30 yr old whites with bad acne and black teeth and swastika tats, all create more logical fear than the illogical fear created by an open carried firearm.
Do we make these people conceal who they are? Do we make laws against their appearance? Do we do these things just because it scares some of the general public? Of course not. That would be discrimination, bigotry, and possibly racism.
There is a clear line between public fear and public panic. Yelling "FIRE" repeatedly in a crowded building will create public panic. This is an example of an intentioned action with a predictable result and thus is illegal.
Intentionally open carrying and drawing attention to your firearm and yourself in an effort to create concern is intended to create a reaction and id foolhardy at best and illegal if the weapon is brandished.
However, going about your day and open carrying for those of us that carry every day, is an action with no intent of causing public panic. True it may create some public fear for some members of the public. But we have strived in this country to move away from governing against illogically feared persons and objects.
I could easily say that a group of young black men wearing all red and black clothing with gang tats on their arms and necks, or a group of young Hispanics with clear gang tats and corresponding apparel, or a couple of skinny un-kept nervous mid 30 yr old whites with bad acne and black teeth and swastika tats, all create more logical fear than the illogical fear created by an open carried firearm.
Do we make these people conceal who they are? Do we make laws against their appearance? Do we do these things just because it scares some of the general public? Of course not. That would be discrimination, bigotry, and possibly racism.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:37 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
I agree with all of this but I believe you need to recognize that perception is everything. Most people, even gun owners, are not comfortable with open carry it is simply something they tolerate. there are numerous gun owners in this country that own nothing but a shotgun and they have an opinion that can be swayed either way. Those are the people that stop the Feds from limiting gun rights and those are the people we need to worry about. If they decide to start voting with the other side the battle is lost. To those people there is little difference between open carrying a revolver and carrying an AR on a sling.
Sadly this is also true.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:43 pm to DanTiger
quote:
I agree but you are going about it in the wrong manner backing those who open carry in Wal-Mart. Public opinion is split now but it doesn't take much to sway the sheeple of this nation one way or the other. If people continue to do stupid things like carry ARs around in high traffic areas and open carry in Wal-Mart opinion will likely start to sway toward more gun restrictions.
Public opinion has already been swayed and open carrying in a shopping area is a negative and hurts the cause more than helps it. It's the reality of the situation whether some people like it or not.
You have to deal with reality, not idealism. If there are 100 people in a store and you freak out 2-3 of them, you have a problem. In the end, more legislation will be passed cutting down on your right to open carry in specific areas.
I live in an area where it's very common to see people with firearms on the street. Hell, even liberals have firearms here but I understand going into Costco or Walmart with a visible firearm could cause panic. It's hurting the cause, not helping.
It's common sense. Anyone thinking it helps your cause by doing this isn't the brightest bulb.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:48 pm to DanTiger
quote:
I agree with all of this but I believe you need to recognize that perception is everything.
The whole argument can be put in this nutshell.
Posted on 2/17/14 at 12:52 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
The whole argument can be put in this nutshell.
Unless you are unwilling to convert your beliefs, due to those around you laying down. Im not too much concerned with what other people think of me, and to be honest, the few times I ever open carried in a public setting, I got absolutely no response.
Maybe its because I was properly dressed, calm normal acting person. I wasn't trying to make eye contact with everyone, or high stepping around putting hand on my hips like "look at my gun".. Maybe you are right, maybe perception is everthing.
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