re: "9mm vs 40 sw" The great handgun debate

I don't care what one location has, one point of data is not a trend. Nationally, the 9mm/.40S&W/.45 has seen flux for years and will continue to do so for decades to come. The largest LEA's in the country issue all three, many thousands more pistols than Barney will see.

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Call Barneys in Lafayette and ask them how many .40 SW and 45 ACP trade ins they have. Then ask about how many 9mm

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Are all of these 40 and 45 trade in the result of poor performance in a self defense situation?

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Are all of these 40 and 45 trade in the result of poor performance in a self defense situation?

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Well, they didn't write 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP on a piece of paper and pick a caliber out of a hat. It illustrates a preference.

My guess would be most of them have never been fired anywhere near the direction of a human being.

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when the zombies come and y'all run out of 9mm I'll still be splitting heads

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So, just to be clear you are saying you would shoot all of your 9mm, with the rest of us, before switching to the .40SW which would allow you to continue to keep splitting heads? So 9mm is your preference. Thanks.

Y'all need to stop focusing on if all three were shot into ballistics gel, which the result is about even depending on ammo, and focus on this:

- The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)


*drops mic

Sorry to burst your tiny little bubble but I own pistols in 9mm, .45, .357 Mag, and .50 AE. I also possess enough knowledge on internal, external, and terminal ballistics not to claim 9mm (or .45, .40, etc) as king of anything. Anyone in the industry might tell you what you repeated but the ones that studied the data in-depth are content to let them rattle on while sure in the the knowledge of what they keep in the holster.

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The OB absolutely hates the .40 but never provides any real reasons for the hate.

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I don't hate the .40 just prefer the 9. OP, why don't you just order the p320 in the .45?

Me too and it's awesome to be able to shoot both when I want to. I got this one from Midway: Midway USA

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If .40 was "better" than 9mm long ago and ammo has gotten better so they are pretty much equal now... why would only 9mm ammo get better?

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I'm not a metallurgist, bullet engineer or physicist. At a certain point, we were already comparing apples to apples, anyway. Recall that hollowpoint ammunition was pretty much just that for decades - a partially jacketed or unjacketed round with a - at times - crude hollowed out shape. Much of such ammunition came out of handloading, and the cartridges themselves were demonized in some state and local laws as "dum dums" and so forth.

So, when the capacity came to make really high quality HP and JHP ammunition, the first one to really grab attention was the Federal 357B - it remains an extremely effective (although obsolete) round with a 95% "one shot stop" record in real world shootings. Now - keep in mind, this is skewed as much of the real world shooting data was police involved shootings from the 1950s through 1980s and a lot of those cops were carrying 4-inch Colt and Smith .357 revolvers with 6 in the cylinder. If you think about it - it makes sense those guys took their time and tried to make every shot count.

Flash forward to the 1980s - 9mm pistols had NEVER been popular in the U.S. Revolvers were still king as late as the late 70s/early 80s. .38 and .357 were huge sellers for law enforcement and self defense options. Larger .357 revolvers were popular for hunting. So, what bullet development existed was for those platforms (first) - now 38 special and .357 are approximately the same diameter as 9mm and share many of the bullet weights, so some of that was transferable. There was also a .45 ACP market, sustained heavily by veterans who had experience with the M1911 from their years in the service.

THEN, several things happened in short order - the U.S. military changed their sidearm from the M1911 and wanted to use the 9mm NATO (Luger/Parabellum - all the same thing) cartridge for standardization with our allies, as we were still in the Cold War.

This started in 1979. The Beretta 92 (M9, ultimately selected) was developed. Sig adapted their P220 to conform with the specs, which yielded the P226 (who ultimately ditched their M9s for this, far superior, albeit pricey, platform) - and by the mid/end of the 1980s, EVERYBODY had a full-sized and compact "Wonder 9" for sale at gun stores all over this great country.

Everyone knew that 9mm was inferior to .45, as it was those little tiny bullets, compared to the "short and fat" .45 ACP. But, these were new, fancy, double action and held a shite ton of bullets. The military bought them and every police force from Maine to Mauna Loa bought them.

Just as the market was, more or less, saturated, the results of the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout became available.

If you don't believe in government insanity, you should study that issue. They were SHOCKED that their pistol/revolver armed agents lost a gunfight with perps armed with long guns - and their response (What would you do? Arm your agents with long guns, right?) - was to try to get a more effective pistol round.

Jeff Cooper had one - the 10mm Auto. And it was a high velocity, hard hitting round - but it was made for M1911 platforms and was really hard on smaller guns and agents. So, they ultimately cut it down and created a cartridge that was smaller and faster than .45ACP and bigger and slower than 9mm. America loves choices, so now you had small, medium, and big (still pistol rounds, mind you - still huge compromises, but choices, right?).

So, when the ugly gun/magazine ban went into effect in 1994, the 9 lost it's huge advantage. People picked .40 and .45 more often, because if you were limited to 10 rounds, then the bias was for the larger caliber. No replacement for bullet weight, particularly with 20th century bullet designs.

Well, in 2004, the ugly gun ban expired and there was renewed interest in 9mm, as they have, as pointed out in the thread by the 9mm disciples, typically 2 or more rounds advantage over .40 in the same platform. Plus, the ammo was historically cheaper and easier to obtain, before the late unpleasantness.

9s became hugely popular again. Bullet makers started focusing on what could be fixed - the 9mm terminal performance, penetration, expansion, etc. The reason they're "even" now is that 9mm had more room to grow. The same technology was applied to .40 and .45 ACP, and they're improved as well, but we're at the point of diminishing returns and they've all settled onto about even performance.

So, until a breakthrough occurs that takes advantage of the larger caliber's bullet mass or diameter, the easier to shoot/can carry more rounds cartridge wins current evaluations by default.

I didn't say I had a preference
I said I can shoot both out of one gun
you may parse other posts in this thread in an effort to prove whatever point it is you have, but mine is the Switzerland of this stupid debate