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re: Which teams would you trade rosters including draft assets with?
Posted on 3/25/24 at 3:25 pm to brmark70816
Posted on 3/25/24 at 3:25 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Do what? Based on what?
Based on hes already doing things that no other player has ever done. Do you guys watch basketball outside the pelicans?
0
Posted on 3/25/24 at 3:34 pm to brmark70816
quote:Logic, eye test, virtually anything you want to base it on. That's his ceiling.
Do what? Based on what?
His per 36 over his last 34 games are:
28ppg
13.3 rpg
5.1 apg
1.6 spa
4.6 big
He's a rookie. He will be much, much better than those numbers above going forward.
He is already the best defensive player in the NBA, yes better than Rudy. Again, as a rookie.
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 3/25/24 at 3:47 pm to shel311
quote:
Being the greatest of all time IS his ceiling.
Come on man, you honestly believe this? Just simply based on how terrible the Spurs have been makes me lean towards not even being convinced he can be a game changer like you would expect a potential GOAT to be. Lebron had one of the worst lineups ever assembled on that 03-04 team and had them 1 game away from the playoffs in his rookie season.
He's having one of the better rookie seasons in recent memory no doubt, but it hasn't impacted his teams winning (in fairness, most rookies don't impact winning in a significant way). I'd also argue that his body type is really working against him as far as potential longevity needed to go down as one of the goats.
Multi year/perennial all-star, sure. The GOAT as his ceiling, nah.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 4:01 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
He's having one of the better rookie seasons in recent memory no doubt, but it hasn't impacted his teams winning (in fairness, most rookies don't impact winning in a significant way).
His on/off stats suggest he actually is impacting winning. The Spurs are really bad and the west is really good. The body type argument is honestly has no backing. KD and Dirk were long and skinny and have/had long careers. Heck
Chet got hurt last year and hasn’t missed a game this year.
I know people hate hype. But don’t let the hype persuade you away from just watching him play basketball. The guy blocks everything in sight, shoots 3, has a solid handle, catches alley oops, etc. The guy is putting up video game numbers as a rookie and is exceeding his hype.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 4:19 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
His on/off stats suggest he actually is impacting winning
But actual wins suggest he isn't. I'm not trying to say that in a condescending way fwiw, but they are an awful team and actually winning %, worse than last year. I get that the West is really good and that doesn't help obviously. But we're talking GOAT ceiling here. LeBron is obviously the most recent player in the GOAT debate so I'm just comparing him to LeBron for that reason alone. That Cavs team Lebrons rookie season was bad bad, Carlos Boozer was their next best player. The year before Lebron, they were worse than the 2023 Spurs team. They draft LeBron, and he doubles their win total. Odds are, the Spurs finish worse than they did last year.
quote:
The body type argument is honestly has no backing. KD and Dirk were long and skinny and have/had long careers
There really hasn't been anyone with a body like VW. Long and skinny doesn't even do his long and skinny justice. He's a different long and skinny. Dirk actually had a little mass to him too. I just don't look at him and see him as a guy that can play 20 years or something close to that, which is realistically what it would take for him to be in the GOAT conversation. Maybe I'm wrong, but most guys don't play nearly that long so it's not like I'm going out on a limb with that, much less saying it about a guy that is built more like an alien than a human being.
quote:
Heck
Chet got hurt last year and hasn’t missed a game this year.
This really doesn't help his case imo. The guy most closely built to him has missed half of his two seasons in the NBA.
quote:
I know people hate hype. But don’t let the hype persuade you away from just watching him play basketball. The guy blocks everything in sight, shoots 3, has a solid handle, catches alley oops, etc. The guy is putting up video game numbers as a rookie and is exceeding his hype.
His hype doesn't bother me or stop me from watching him. He's awesome and a blast to watch. He's incredibly impressive. I just think putting his ceiling as the GOAT is a bit ridiculous.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 4:35 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
But actual wins suggest he isn't. I'm not trying to say that in a condescending way fwiw, but they are an awful team and actually winning %, worse than last year.
Yeah but thats the whole point they’re not awful when he plays. Just some stats for your reflection.
- His per 36 stats that shell listed above are the best since Kareem in 76-77.
- His usage rate of 30.7 in 1000 plus minutes is the highest ever recorded for a rookie.
- hes shooting near 39% from 3 in his rookie year
- Spurs defense with him ON the floor has allowed 9 fewer points thats second best in the NBA next to Kawhi.
By the way Carlos Boozer is better than anything the Spurs have and the east was substantially weaker at that point than the west is now.
quote:
There really hasn't been anyone with a body like VW. Long and skinny doesn't even do his long and skinny justice. He's a different long and skinny. Dirk actually had a little mass to him too. I just don't look at him and see him as a guy that can play 20 years or something close to that, which is realistically what it would take for him to be in the GOAT conversation. Maybe I'm wrong, but most guys don't play nearly that long so it's not like I'm going out on a limb with that, much less saying it about a guy that is built more like an alien than a human being.
Ok im confused you’re saying there’s never been a body type like Wembys but your also saying most guys with his body type dont play for long seasons. You have to clear this up because both cant be true.
The Chet thing I agree can be spinned both ways but the fact he hasn’t missed a game this season is remarkable considering many people were worried about his body type.
I mean its your opinion. But the whole basketball world has his ceiling at GOAT and I agree.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 4:44 pm to shel311
quote:
His per 36 over his last 34 games are:
His team has only won 15 games this year. They are actually worse than last year. There is no excuse for that. It's not a top 10 modern NBA rookie season. Not if you don't impact winning at all and the team is actually worse.
quote:
He's a rookie. He will be much, much better than those numbers above going forward.
Maybe. He's a great talent. But the size is going to do him in. Guys his height/length do not last in the league. It's a fact, once you get over 7'2, careers are shortened. Playing as a wing or away from the rim won't make a difference.
You can't be an all time great playing less than 8-10 seasons, unless he wins 3+ rings in that time period.
quote:
He is already the best defensive player in the NBA, yes better than Rudy.
I don't equate shot blockers to great defenders. He can't guard the paint effectively because he can't hold his position. Maybe that will come with time, but tons of guys have abused him this year. He'll win DPOY, which is fine. But he's not the best defender..
Posted on 3/25/24 at 4:56 pm to brmark70816
There is so much wrong in your post.
Hes not Manute Bol or Yao Ming. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you.
This whole paragraph makes no sense. Blocking shots is part of defending the paint. Saying he’ll win DPOY but he’s not the best defender makes absolutely no sense.
They won 22 games last year- yes they’re worse but the season also isn’t over and again the west is much better than last year. For example the Kings had 48 wins and were the 3 seed. See how that works. Competition matters.
quote:
Maybe. He's a great talent. But the size is going to do him in. Guys his height/length do not last in the league. It's a fact, once you get over 7'2, careers are shortened. Playing as a wing or away from the rim won't make a difference. You can't be an all time great playing less than 8-10 seasons, unless he wins 3+ rings in that time period.
Hes not Manute Bol or Yao Ming. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you.
quote:
I don't equate shot blockers to great defenders. He can't guard the paint effectively because he can't hold his position. Maybe that will come with time, but tons of guys have abused him this year. He'll win DPOY, which is fine. But he's not the best defender..
This whole paragraph makes no sense. Blocking shots is part of defending the paint. Saying he’ll win DPOY but he’s not the best defender makes absolutely no sense.
quote:
His team has only won 15 games this year. They are actually worse than last year. There is no excuse for that. It's not a top 10 modern NBA rookie season. Not if you don't impact winning at all and the team is actually worse.
They won 22 games last year- yes they’re worse but the season also isn’t over and again the west is much better than last year. For example the Kings had 48 wins and were the 3 seed. See how that works. Competition matters.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:42 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:That his ceiling is best of all time? Certainly, why wouldn't I?
Come on man, you honestly believe this?
quote:
Just simply based on how terrible the Spurs have been makes me lean towards not even being convinced he can be a game changer like you would expect a potential GOAT to be
quote:Wemby's team is MUCH worse. Look at the On/Off for both in their rookie year.
Just simply based on how terrible the Spurs have been makes me lean towards not even being convinced he can be a game changer like you would expect a potential GOAT to be. Lebron had one of the worst lineups ever assembled on that 03-04 team and had them 1 game away from the playoffs in his rookie season.
Victor on -3.6; Lebron on -2.6. Sure, Lebron is better, but that should obviously not be your difference between a potential GOAT and a guy that has no chance to be a GOAT.
Victor Off -12.0; Lebron Off +2.1
So Wemby's team, as I said, is way worse than Lebron's rookie year when both are off the court, and Wemby has a better On/Off Net than Lebron.
Also, that's all just team stuff. Wemby has objectively been better than Lebron in their rookie years. There's not much of an argument to suggest Lebron was better. Wemby was better statistically and did so on a decidedly worse team.
quote:Like above, neither did Lebron.
He's having one of the better rookie seasons in recent memory no doubt, but it hasn't impacted his teams winning
quote:The only legit argument that GOAT is NOT his ceiling is his body type and potential injuries. There's nothing about his play on the court that would suggest his ceiling should be lower.
Multi year/perennial all-star, sure. The GOAT as his ceiling, nah.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:44 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:Again, using team success, Wemby should actually be thought of even higher than rookie Lebron.
But actual wins suggest he isn't. I'm not trying to say that in a condescending way fwiw, but they are an awful team and actually winning %, worse than last year. I get that the West is really good and that doesn't help obviously. But we're talking GOAT ceiling here. LeBron is obviously the most recent player in the GOAT debate so I'm just comparing him to LeBron for that reason alone. That Cavs team Lebrons rookie season was bad bad, Carlos Boozer was their next best player. The year before Lebron, they were worse than the 2023 Spurs team. They draft LeBron, and he doubles their win total. Odds are, the Spurs finish worse than they did last year.
Wemby ON has basically been just about as good as rookie Lebron but he's done so on a team that is factually MUCH worse than Lebron's rookie year team based on how both teams played with both rookies off court.
quote:Again, it's ceiling. It's not what you or i think he'll be. It's what is the best possible scenario for a player, the chance that everything goes perfectly. For Wemby, it's absolutely the greatest player we've ever seen. He's doing historical things on almost a weekly basis, and this is likely the worst version of Wemby we'll ever see.
I just think putting his ceiling as the GOAT is a bit ridiculous.
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 6:45 pm
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:44 pm to shel311
Wemby is going to be the best player in the NBA in as soon as 2-3 years.
The Rockets won't have a single dude sniff the top 10.
The Rockets won't have a single dude sniff the top 10.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:47 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:Here's another way to look at it:
By the way Carlos Boozer is better than anything the Spurs have and the east was substantially weaker at that point than the west is now.
When rookie Lebron was off the court, his team played like this year's Utah Jazz. Not good, but not a terrible team.
When Wemby is off the court, the Spurs are by far worse than the Pistons, Wizards, or Hornets, clearing all of them by 2+ points.
THAT is a massive difference in supporting casts. And yet when both were on the court, Wemby had his shite cast darn near as good as Lebron had his much better cast.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:49 pm to brmark70816
quote:See above, he does, more so than rookie Lebron affected winning.
His team has only won 15 games this year. They are actually worse than last year. There is no excuse for that. It's not a top 10 modern NBA rookie season. Not if you don't impact winning at all and the team is actually worse.
Now what?
quote:He guards the paint and affects how players play in the paint more than any player in the NBA right now, and whoever is 2nd isn't even close to Wemby.
I don't equate shot blockers to great defenders. He can't guard the paint effectively because he can't hold his position.
That's what he does right now.
quote:What you're missing is that he can win DPOY this year, and it would be 100% a legit deserved award.
He'll win DPOY, which is fine. But he's not the best defender..
Posted on 3/25/24 at 6:59 pm to shel311
And just for the record, I wouldn't throw this out for any player.
I can't remember thinking that a player's ceiling is GOAT for any player since rookie Lebron, so it's not something I'd throw around loosely.
He is that good to warrant that being his ceiling.
I can't remember thinking that a player's ceiling is GOAT for any player since rookie Lebron, so it's not something I'd throw around loosely.
He is that good to warrant that being his ceiling.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 7:35 pm to shel311
quote:
Now what?
I don't think you made the point you think you did. I never said anything about Lebron James.
Great players win. It's not his fault they are losing. But he's not making them win. That matters. Zion is never losing 50 games in a healthy season (much less 60). One player can make that big of an impact. When the Spurs got both Duncan and Robinson, the team more than doubled their wins from thr previous season. You honestly think Wemby has had a better rookie season than either of those guys?
quote:
That's what he does right now.
Just now? Not a couple of months ago? Was he doing it when Embiid dropped 70 on him?
quote:
What you're missing is that he can win DPOY this year, and it would be 100% a legit deserved award.
It's fine. It's a hype award and he's a big name. I don't think he should get it, but there isn't a truly dominant stand out this year, so I can't think of anyone that is getting robbed. Of course I think Herb should get it. But I'm biased..
Posted on 3/25/24 at 8:11 pm to brmark70816
quote:Who are all these rookies that were the best player on these great teams you speak of?
I don't think you made the point you think you did. I never said anything about Lebron James.
Great players win
quote:Again, name the rookies who led awesome teams. It's easy to pretend you're correct when you place a standard on him that no other player on this modern era has attained.
But he's not making them win. That matters
quote:If you added prime David Robinson or Tim Duncan to this team, call me crazy but I think the Spurs would be a good team
When the Spurs got both Duncan and Robinson, the team more than doubled their wins from thr previous season. You honestly think Wemby has had a better rookie season than either of those guys?
You're now comparing Wemby alone to 2 top 10-15 players of all time playing together lol.
quote:I can't help you if you're not watching him play, which is exactly what you're telling me.
Just now? Not a couple of months ago?
quote:You missed the part where I said it would be deserved, you glossed right over that part.
It's fine. It's a hype award and he's a big name
quote:Spurs defense is 8.7 points worse when Wemby goes off court.
I think Herb should get it. But I'm biased
Pels defense is 0.8 points worse when Herb goes off court.
Posted on 3/25/24 at 9:48 pm to shel311
quote:
Who are all these rookies that were the best player on these great teams you speak of?
There are tons of them. I had already named Duncan and Robinson.
quote:
Again, name the rookies who led awesome teams
I'll add Bird and Magic.
quote:
You're now comparing Wemby alone to 2 top 10-15 players of all time playing together lol.
What? You do realize Robinson is like 12 years older than Duncan, right?
In Robinson's first year out of the Navy (with no other all time greats), his team won 56 games, up from 21 the year before. He was an allstar and averaged 24/12 along with 4 blocks a game.
quote:
can't help you if you're not watching him play, which is exactly what you're telling me.
Why would I be watching Spurs games? They suck. Why are you watching them? Are you a Spurs fan?
quote:
You missed the part where I said it would be deserved, you glossed right over that part.
Same as when you buzzed right past my remark about him guarding Embiid.
quote:
Spurs defense is 8.7 points worse when Wemby goes off court.
Pels defense is 0.8 points worse when Herb goes off court.
Are you taking a shot at Herb Jones?
Posted on 3/25/24 at 10:18 pm to brmark70816
quote:So Duncan had a top 15 all time great.
There are tons of them. I had already named Duncan and Robinson.
quote:You've now given more examples and had to go back 30 years, and gave more examples of players who played with ready made all time greats and multiple Hall of Famers
I'll add Bird and Magic.
You really want to compare those Spurs, Celtics and Lakers teams to Wemby's teammates, you think your argument will hold up once we do that?
quote:to clarify, you have to go back 30+ years and think it's a remotely comparable situation with a 24 year old David Robinson playing with multiple players who made All Star teams before the season and a future Hall of Famer as well to the dudes Wemby plays with?
In Robinson's first year out of the Navy (with no other all time greats), his team won 56 games, up from 21 the year before
quote:I like basketball.
Why would I be watching Spurs games? They suck. Why are you watching them? Are you a Spurs fan?
So you admit to not watching Wemby but have all these strong opinions about him? It's probably best in general to not speak so definitively about things you turn around and freely admit you have no clue about.
quote:I provided 2 statements of fact, did they upset you or something? Facts don't care about feelings. It seems you didn't realize the difference Wemby makes on D compared to Herb and that made you feel some weird way, so you are blaming me for doing the exact thing you're doing right now now.
Are you taking a shot at Herb Jones?
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 10:19 pm
Posted on 3/26/24 at 8:02 am to shel311
Honestly, the way Zion is playing right now, I think the only asset in the NBA that I could possibly trade him for if he stays healthy is Wemby.
Posted on 3/26/24 at 8:18 am to ghost2most
This is a very long, drawn out way to let us know you like Denver.
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