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re: .
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:25 pm to SoDakHawk
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:25 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
At the moment that Michael made the choice Sonny was still alive.
I agree that Michael was all in once the old man was shot. I agree that was, sort of his conscious choice (driven by circumstances, not by whim). If there had been an orderly transition from Vito to Sonny (which was a few years off), Michael would have completed law school and probably have run for local office by then.
But, that didn't happen. The boys were gangsters. Their father was a gangster. Sonny was a pretty good capo, but an impulsive Don. Fredo was useless, pretty much, except in a low level role - a liaison - if that (which is what he was in Vegas, as it is and he fricked that up). Michael was the closest to Vito, but for a younger generation.
2
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:45 pm to Ace Midnight
Fredo took Moe Greene's side against Micheal in the argument in part1. After Greene publiclly humiliated Fredo for "doing cocktail waitresses two at a time".
That was the first time Fredo F'ed up. He should have learned. He didn't and almost got his brother killed.
Fredo could never be trusted, so he had to go.
He would have been a dangeous liability even in exile. One of the other families could have found him and exploited him again. You can pity Fredo, but he had to go.
That was the first time Fredo F'ed up. He should have learned. He didn't and almost got his brother killed.
Fredo could never be trusted, so he had to go.
He would have been a dangeous liability even in exile. One of the other families could have found him and exploited him again. You can pity Fredo, but he had to go.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:49 pm to Ace Midnight
I don't think Michael was really in until they murdered his wife and Sonny. In the books, you get a sense that it was those events that drove him. His marriage to Kay was a front, to help the family gain credibility. Her family was old money and had a great reputation. Michael wanted to make the family all legit (ala the Kennedys). Everybody around him though kept fricking it up. The family was already worth millions to billions. He just needed a way to get there and his rep was ruined after killing the police captain, then securing the family by wiping out all the families enemies. It was necessary, but all of his legit plans were stymed. You can see that by how the Senator talked to him. He would always be a gangster..
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:51 pm to ScottFowler
quote:
He would have been a dangeous liability even in exile. One of the other families could have found him and exploited him again. You can pity Fredo, but he had to go.
How could he have ever been exlpoited again? He would have been cut out of the family business, no longer a player, no influence at all. It's not like the Corleone family was a monarchy and Fredo would have been next in line to the throne in case of Michael's demise. And if you are thinking he could be held has hostage or kidnapped ot get to Michael, no way, that was againt the code. he would have become a neutral and wouldn't be touched. Like Michael was a neutral and wasn't touched prior to his choice to enter the family business.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:53 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I don't think Michael was really in until they murdered his wife and Sonny. In the books, you get a sense that it was those events that drove him. His marriage to Kay was a front, to help the family gain credibility. Her family was old money and had a great reputation. Michael wanted to make the family all legit (ala the Kennedys). Everybody around him though kept fricking it up. The family was already worth millions to billions. He just needed a way to get there and his rep was ruined after killing the police captain, then securing the family by wiping out all the families enemies. It was necessary, but all of his legit plans were stymed. You can see that by how the Senator talked to him. He would always be a gangster..
Great observations. Especially the effect that Sonny's and Appalonia's deaths had on him. Michael came back from Sicily incapable of love or empathy. ALmost soulless.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:54 pm to DelU249
No. That was the beginning of the end for Michael. He lost his humanity in that move. His father never lost his humanity. Carla looked up to him. He tried to save his family but he ended up destroying it and died alone.
It was a very bad move. Even Macchiavelli would say that mercy there could be used to redeem Fredo and turn him into your strongest ally. Always know that Michael forgave him, Fredo would have been Michael's most loyal friend. It was unnecessary and weakened Michael.
Greatest movies ever. Geez. Thinking about them even now almost gives me chills. So much depth. When Neri killed Fredo and stood up in the boat and Michael is looking out the window expressionless onto the ice cold late as the sun was setting ... man, you knew that that was it for Michael. He was finished.
It was a very bad move. Even Macchiavelli would say that mercy there could be used to redeem Fredo and turn him into your strongest ally. Always know that Michael forgave him, Fredo would have been Michael's most loyal friend. It was unnecessary and weakened Michael.
Greatest movies ever. Geez. Thinking about them even now almost gives me chills. So much depth. When Neri killed Fredo and stood up in the boat and Michael is looking out the window expressionless onto the ice cold late as the sun was setting ... man, you knew that that was it for Michael. He was finished.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 3:58 pm to DelU249
No. I would have put him in some meaningless position with no real authority. At worst, I would have set him up and got him some country club prison time for 5-10 years.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 4:03 pm to SoDakHawk
Michael wasnt touched because he was a kid and the Corleone family was extremely powerful. War with them meant extinction for the other family. When the war began, the Corleones were fighting against all 4 other families and holding their own. If the other family hadnt got Luca, they would have probably wiped out everybody. But it was code, family was out of bounds. Sonny was the one to break that rule.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 4:38 pm to brmark70816
Sonny killed a cop. Law enforcement was out of bounds but McCluskey was kinda fair game because he was dirty.
Sonny didn't really violate the code of not touching family.
Michael was singled out as a non-combatant in front of the hospital, but McCluskey broke his jaw anyway.
Sonny didn't really violate the code of not touching family.
Michael was singled out as a non-combatant in front of the hospital, but McCluskey broke his jaw anyway.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 4:44 pm to Peazey
quote:
I guess you could say the central point of the story is that ultimately the purported family values of the mafia and its actual nature are irreconcilable. The Dons keep trying to push for legitimacy, but you can't get something pure from corruption.
I always thought a central point was the legitimate world was no better than the Mafia.
Michael didn't want to be a gangster. He even moved to Nevada where the vices he ran were legal. Then he found out the "respectable" world was full of people like Pat Geary.
Basically, the Sicilians internalized the WASP myths about the legitimate world being morally superior to the organized crime underworld, when it is in fact more corrupt.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 5:00 pm to SoDakHawk
Sonny killed one of the sons of a rival don. That is what ended the peace officially. The war was on after that and families were on the table, no women and kids though.
Michael was a war hero and very high profile. He killed the captain and the drug guy, but the shooting was pined on another guy. Which is why Michael was allowed to come back to the US. That was the peace that the dons negotiated. But Vito knew Michael would get revenge for Sonny. He had it all planned out..
Michael was a war hero and very high profile. He killed the captain and the drug guy, but the shooting was pined on another guy. Which is why Michael was allowed to come back to the US. That was the peace that the dons negotiated. But Vito knew Michael would get revenge for Sonny. He had it all planned out..
Posted on 10/9/15 at 5:01 pm to Bestbank Tiger
Why stop at Fredo? He should have whacked Kay for that abortion!
Personally, I don't know how he ever forgave Kay for that.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 5:06 pm to navy
That is why i hate 3 so much. He would have never forgiven Kay. What she did was pure murder. A late term abortion behind her husbands back in the 1960s. He could have made her disappear quick. Her affinity for her kids was just suspect after that. She was a danger to them. No judge would have let her have visitation, much less custody.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 6:04 pm to navy
quote:
Personally, I don't know how he ever forgave Kay for that.
Especially since it was done out of contempt for his heritage. It was the ultimate exercise in hypocrisy--she's "too good" for that dirty Sicilian business. Even though as I mentioned above, the legitimate world is dirtier than the Mafia.
Posted on 10/9/15 at 11:19 pm to DelU249
No, but I might have put him in some kind of institution where they would have kept him "doped up" until the day he died. Everyone else would have thought he was dead. He couldn't hurt the family in the state he'd be in. With Michael's power, it would have been easy to do back then.
Great thread by the way!
Great thread by the way!
Posted on 10/9/15 at 11:36 pm to DelU249
By the time he did it, there was no need
Posted on 10/10/15 at 6:07 am to DelU249
Depends, if you thought you could shut him up he'd be a great fall guy for Michael.
Posted on 10/10/15 at 6:10 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
I always thought a central point was the legitimate world was no better than the Mafia.
Michael didn't want to be a gangster. He even moved to Nevada where the vices he ran were legal. Then he found out the "respectable" world was full of people like Pat Geary.
Basically, the Sicilians internalized the WASP myths about the legitimate world being morally superior to the organized crime underworld, when it is in fact more corrupt.
Which is what made the Sopranos so great-- it poked holes in the stupid "honor" crap that these guys talked about when in reality they were no different than MS-13 or the Crips-- just violent thugs who profited off exploring others vices.
Posted on 10/10/15 at 6:57 am to montanagator
Shouldn't have killed fredo. He was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time. They made fredo a problem by not giving him any real responsibility just because he had the croop as a baby and cried alot essentially. There was never alot of backstory or explanation about why everyone in the family had no respect for him. Only explanation provided was he was sickly.
This post was edited on 10/10/15 at 7:09 am
Posted on 10/10/15 at 7:14 am to Rou Leed
The most useless character by far was tom hagale and the biggest threat because he was not really family. They really should have taken him fishing instead of fredo. He could have brought the whole thing down.
This post was edited on 10/10/15 at 7:18 am
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