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Started By
Message
re: Marvel's Iron Fist is bombing with critics (viewer discussion begins on page 5)
Posted on 3/29/17 at 10:55 am to Methuselah
Posted on 3/29/17 at 10:55 am to Methuselah
quote:
Generally I find it hard to work up much interest in the whine wars between the SJWs and the Anti-SJWs. But I figured some of you guys might get a kick out of this little tiff between Roy Thomas, the comic book writer who invented Iron Fist, and Jessica Henwick, the actress who plays Coleen Wing:
i feel like oriental just became racist in the last 5 years.
quote:
“Oriental is a term used to describe rugs, not people.”
and mexican is a term to describe food, not people?
1
Posted on 3/29/17 at 11:24 am to RedPants
Yeah. This is why I don't trust reviews.
1. Literally cringe when this word is used seriously. 2. At that point it appeared to be more of a day-care than a dojo, and he is the Iron Fist, so I would imagine he did in fact feel confident that he knew a bit more about Kung Fu.
Feel like the far and away most awful person in show (Harold Meachum)being white would hedge that a bit.
quote:
He mansplains kung-fu to Colleen Wing (Jessica Henwick), a skilled martial artist with her own dojo.
1. Literally cringe when this word is used seriously. 2. At that point it appeared to be more of a day-care than a dojo, and he is the Iron Fist, so I would imagine he did in fact feel confident that he knew a bit more about Kung Fu.
quote:
Danny’s primary foe, includes most of the show’s people of color.
Feel like the far and away most awful person in show (Harold Meachum)being white would hedge that a bit. 
Posted on 3/29/17 at 11:24 am to 3nOut
People really get upset about the term "Oriental"? What would they prefer? Also, will someone please let me know when I can get offended when I get referred to as "white".
Thanks,
Thanks,
Posted on 3/29/17 at 12:00 pm to Aubie Spr96
quote:
People really get upset about the term "Oriental"? What would they prefer?
We were at war off and on with one Asian country or another over the span of a few decades, so I suspect it hasn't always been used in the nicest way.
quote:
John Kuo Wei Tchen, director of the Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute at New York University, said the basic critique of the term developed in the 1970s. Tchen has said, “With the anti-war movement in the ’60s and early ’70s, many Asian Americans identified the term ‘’Oriental’’ with a Western process of racializing Asians as forever opposite ‘others’.”
LINK /
On top of that, there is a lot of bad blood between many of the different Asian nationalities, so lumping them all together probably pisses some of them off.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 12:27 pm to Pitch To Johnny
quote:
Feel like the far and away most awful person in show (Harold Meachum)being white would hedge that a bit.
No kidding. The guy that ends up being the main bad guy is a white, male billionaire. I'd think that would be right up the reviewer's alley.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 1:35 pm to RedPants
quote:
No kidding. The guy that ends up being the main bad guy is a white, male billionaire. I'd think that would be right up the reviewer's alley.
This was my point a few pages back. It seemed like the majority of the bad reviews on rotten tomatoes centered on racism, sexism, etc., so they were hard to take seriously. There are a lot of valid criticisms of the show, but giving a show a bad review off of one or two episodes because it doesn't jive with a PC agenda is ridiculous.
I thought it was an alright series, not great, but not terrible by any means.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 1:50 pm to devils1854
quote:
1.Daredevil 2
2.Jessica Jones
3.Daredevil
4.Iron Fist
5.Luke Cage
I actually agree with this list, but LC is like #19 to me. Its the only series I could not make it through. I tried, multiple times.
But its just shite.
Co-ink-y-dink that every LC lover hates the "whitewashing" of the actual white man Ironfist.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 1:57 pm to P-Dawg
I'm only halfway through, and the show has issues with pacing and dialogue (so, pretty much every other Marvel Netflix show), but I'm fascinated by the backlash. Are people seriously trying to argue that the default casting for a character that knows kung fu is to go find an Asian guy is the non-racist position?
Some characters, race is irrelevant. Spider-Man has been recast as a black Hispanic kid, and it still works the same. The Hulk? Bruce Banner's race could be anything.
But I think Danny Rand needs to be a white guy because of the exact reason critics are mad at Iron Fist: Danny Rand is obscenely wealthy, privileged from birth white kid who is first torn from his lofty place in the social strata and then when returned to it, is wracked with guilt by his wealth, especially because the corporation he owns is not benign. Besides, his odd coupling friendship with Luke Cage is one of the best things in the Marvel Universe, and part of the total opposites thing is their respective races (not to mention wealth/class).
And yes, Danny Rand gets to explain the mystical secrets of Ku'un-Lun to the woman who has never been there, and therefore has literally no knowledge of it, by definition.
Some characters, race is irrelevant. Spider-Man has been recast as a black Hispanic kid, and it still works the same. The Hulk? Bruce Banner's race could be anything.
But I think Danny Rand needs to be a white guy because of the exact reason critics are mad at Iron Fist: Danny Rand is obscenely wealthy, privileged from birth white kid who is first torn from his lofty place in the social strata and then when returned to it, is wracked with guilt by his wealth, especially because the corporation he owns is not benign. Besides, his odd coupling friendship with Luke Cage is one of the best things in the Marvel Universe, and part of the total opposites thing is their respective races (not to mention wealth/class).
And yes, Danny Rand gets to explain the mystical secrets of Ku'un-Lun to the woman who has never been there, and therefore has literally no knowledge of it, by definition.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 2:20 pm to Methuselah
What's even more ridiculous about the creator using the "wrong word" is that in his quote he acknowledges that he knows that Oriental is not the accepted term anymore. He's an old man. He probably can't remember shite anymore except for the things that were acceptable most of his life. Some people have too much time on their hands.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 2:25 pm to Baloo
quote:
But I think Danny Rand needs to be a white guy because of the exact reason critics are mad at Iron Fist: Danny Rand is obscenely wealthy, privileged from birth white kid who is first torn from his lofty place in the social strata and then when returned to it, is wracked with guilt by his wealth, especially because the corporation he owns is not benign. Besides, his odd coupling friendship with Luke Cage is one of the best things in the Marvel Universe, and part of the total opposites thing is their respective races (not to mention wealth/class).
I have no clue about the source comics, but they really played up the "outsider in Kun Lun" angle in the show, which seems pretty central to his character, his inner struggles, and him being a white American makes that work even better.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 3:46 pm to TigerinATL
Love how media and SJWs don't bother to read source material or even do the basic minimal research on these characters yet report how racist it is that a white guy is doing Kung fu. These characters have often been around longer than the reporters and they act like somebody just made them up this week.
I like iron fist, it's no DD but very enjoyable. The meachems were great and I think Joy will eventually flip to Danny's side. Love The Hand and can't wait to see where it goes in The Defenders.
I like iron fist, it's no DD but very enjoyable. The meachems were great and I think Joy will eventually flip to Danny's side. Love The Hand and can't wait to see where it goes in The Defenders.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 4:02 pm to CenlaMikePA
quote:
and I think Joy will eventually flip to Danny's side.
You clearly haven't read the comics then.
In the comics, she is constantly trying to have him killed.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 4:04 pm to Baloo
quote:
Spider-Man has been recast as a black Hispanic kid, and it still works the same.
Miles Morales is a black Hispanic kid. Peter Parker is not.
quote:
The Hulk? Bruce Banner's race could be anything.
Bruce Banner has always been white. Amadeus Cho is Korean.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 4:26 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
Miles Morales is a black Hispanic kid. Peter Parker is not.
No shite. He's still Spider-Man. And the character still works.
quote:
Bruce Banner has always been white.
I understand that. I'm saying it's not really fundamental to the character. If Banner was recast as black man, it really would have no fundamental difference on the character. I'd have no problem with it. Danny Rand, OTOH, actually has a story-bound reason for being a white dude.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 6:06 pm to Baloo
I am going to give this a try. After reading this thread I think it will probably be good. I just finished luke cage. It was not binge watch material but to say it was awful just helps me filter opinions. In regards to critics, they very rarely nail entertainment value and too often project their social issues into their reviews. I think my favorite is one of the metacritic reviews for Frozen that praises it for not having a man save the day while criticizing it for not having memorable music.
Posted on 3/29/17 at 6:21 pm to Baloo
quote:
But I think Danny Rand needs to be a white guy because of the exact reason critics are mad at Iron Fist: Danny Rand is obscenely wealthy, privileged from birth white kid who is first torn from his lofty place in the social strata and then when returned to it, is wracked with guilt by his wealth, especially because the corporation he owns is not benign. Besides, his odd coupling friendship with Luke Cage is one of the best things in the Marvel Universe, and part of the total opposites thing is their respective races (not to mention wealth/class).
Iron Fist was never a favorite character of mine but yes that's the essence of his character as I understand it written.
quote:
And yes, Danny Rand gets to explain the mystical secrets of Ku'un-Lun to the woman who has never been there, and therefore has literally no knowledge of it, by definition.
Yeah, and accidentally mansplains his active cultural appropriation.
Posted on 3/31/17 at 10:12 am to RollTide1987
Just finished and I agree with what people have echoed earlier, critics are out of touch with what audiences like and just push their own agendas.
This wasn't the best of the Marvel shows but it certainly isn't the worst either. I thought it flowed nicely in the build up and gave the viewers a feel for the characters. Finn isn't the best actor but Iron Fist powers were showcased well and I thought most of the fight scenes were very well done, especially with the Hand. Gao was a great edition, I think she's one of the best characters going in the MCU's Netflix universe. Still so mysterious though so she has legs to grow. Ward's arc was unexpected as well...he goes from rich corporate prick who I didn't like to sympathetic and a likeable character. Curious where they go with Iron Fist in the future as it obviously has more of a mystical element than its counterparts, sort of like Dr. Strange.
I'd rank the different series:
Daredevil season 1
Daredevil season 2
Iron Fist
Jessica Jones
Luke Cage
With the latter being the only one that wasn't pretty good. Excited to check out the Defenders in a few months
This wasn't the best of the Marvel shows but it certainly isn't the worst either. I thought it flowed nicely in the build up and gave the viewers a feel for the characters. Finn isn't the best actor but Iron Fist powers were showcased well and I thought most of the fight scenes were very well done, especially with the Hand. Gao was a great edition, I think she's one of the best characters going in the MCU's Netflix universe. Still so mysterious though so she has legs to grow. Ward's arc was unexpected as well...he goes from rich corporate prick who I didn't like to sympathetic and a likeable character. Curious where they go with Iron Fist in the future as it obviously has more of a mystical element than its counterparts, sort of like Dr. Strange.
I'd rank the different series:
Daredevil season 1
Daredevil season 2
Iron Fist
Jessica Jones
Luke Cage
With the latter being the only one that wasn't pretty good. Excited to check out the Defenders in a few months
This post was edited on 3/31/17 at 10:14 am
Posted on 3/31/17 at 10:53 am to Starchild
just finished as well. it was better than the second half of luke cage, but worse than the first half and better than Jessica Jones sans David Tennant.
the critics of this make me laugh. white dude becomes an orphan, studies in far east (well before they added that to Batman canon) comes back home, takes up for the little man with price gouging, doesn't accept rich lifestyle, gets involved in an interracial relationship, and then fights billion dollar company corruption. but hey let's rip on it with white privilege and mansplaining.
the critics of this make me laugh. white dude becomes an orphan, studies in far east (well before they added that to Batman canon) comes back home, takes up for the little man with price gouging, doesn't accept rich lifestyle, gets involved in an interracial relationship, and then fights billion dollar company corruption. but hey let's rip on it with white privilege and mansplaining.
Posted on 3/31/17 at 11:22 am to 3nOut
quote:
gets involved in an interracial relationship
They haven't even gotten into the relationship between him and Misty Knight yet.
As far as the Defenders goes, apologies to Simone Missick, but Misty needs to lose her arm for the character to advance forward in the story. (In the comics, her arm is blown off by a bomb and she gets a bionic replacement prototype from Stark Industries which Rand funds)
This post was edited on 3/31/17 at 11:25 am
Posted on 3/31/17 at 11:37 am to RollTide1987
Got bored a lot sooner than I did with LC but I'll trust the people on here who said it gets better.
Was this show made on a substantially lower budget than the other Netflix/Marvel shows because some of it just seems really cheap and the cuts can be jarring-- the Danny climbing building and is pushed out by Ward part was almost incomprehensible.
I think the real problem is the lead- the surrounding cast is good but the lead is easily the least charismatic of the title characters and as written (not as in the comics) Danny is basically a whiny idiot. I get what they're going for but he's just a pain to watch at times.
Was this show made on a substantially lower budget than the other Netflix/Marvel shows because some of it just seems really cheap and the cuts can be jarring-- the Danny climbing building and is pushed out by Ward part was almost incomprehensible.
I think the real problem is the lead- the surrounding cast is good but the lead is easily the least charismatic of the title characters and as written (not as in the comics) Danny is basically a whiny idiot. I get what they're going for but he's just a pain to watch at times.
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