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1
Posted on 7/27/15 at 11:57 pm to finchmeister08
Those last three panels are very convincing, IMO.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 12:00 am to Scruffy
Yea, it's pretty obvious. For me, the story doesn't make sense unless he kills him at the end. Everything fits perfectly. Even the title of the story is a dead giveaway.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 12:26 am to abellsujr
The joke is that Batman kills him.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 7:06 am to Scruffy
quote:
IMO, Batman kills him and the final scene alludes to that with the white line that is crossed by mud and in the next panel the line is gone completely. Finally, after all their battles, Batman breaks his rule and goes over that line.
Huh...all these years of reading that book and not once did I ever see that as a possible ending. It always read to me that, left to his own devices, Bats probably WOULD have finally killed him, but he was brought back to being the anti-Joker by Gordon's own sanity, despite everything the Joker had done to his family. That we were once again seeing how the revolving door would work, and nothing Joker could do would force Bats' hand so long as he himself was tethered to something keeping him grounded.
Interesting take though...
Posted on 7/28/15 at 7:34 am to Scruffy
I haven't read it in a couple of years, but I can't remember what they're both laughing about. Plus, what are those red and yellow dots in the background?
Posted on 7/28/15 at 7:54 am to finchmeister08
quote:
I haven't read it in a couple of years, but I can't remember what they're both laughing about.
quote:
Plus, what are those red and yellow dots in the background?
Police lights and sirens I think.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:01 am to finchmeister08
quote:
I haven't read it in a couple of years, but I can't remember what they're both laughing about.
The joke that the Joker just told.
quote:
Plus, what are those red and yellow dots in the background?
Police cars coming for the Joker.
I guess I'm in the minority. I don't think he killed the Joker. If he had killed him, then it would go against the whole Gordon storyline, and what made Batman different than the Joker. The whole story to me was about the difference in how Batman and the Joker handled the tragedy of their life. I just don't see it.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:09 am to GeauxTigerTM
He killed him over that Joke? What crock. Why would Batman be giggling and then all of a sudden snap his neck. Makes no sense.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:16 am to finchmeister08
quote:
He killed him over that Joke? What crock
No, I think the theory is that he killed him because he finally realized that it had to happen. That, like he said earlier, it was going to happen that one as going to kill the other. The joke was just Joker's way or saying that the two of them were both, in their own ways, crazy and that there could never be trust.
I also agree with you that Bruce, while obviously crazy in his own way, would never coldly choke Joker out after gaining control of himself again like that...after a rational attempt at peace. In a rage and had he not spoken with Gordon like he did? Yeah...that I could have seen. But like this? Nah...which is why I think it never occurred to me that was even an option here.
Cool theory though, like Cameron essentially Fight Clubbing Ferris into existence in Ferris Bueller, but other than it being a fun theory I see no reason it's what actually happened. haha
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:16 am to finchmeister08
quote:He didn't kill him over that joke. He killed him because he realized that The Joker was unsavable and he has to.
He killed him over that Joke? What crock. Why would Batman be giggling and then all of a sudden snap his neck. Makes no sense.
The "killing joke" is The Joker's ultimate joke, that he could finally motivate Batman to end his life.
The joke he tells at the end is just a reflection of their lives. He can't escape. He is too crazy.
I don't see how you can look at the final three panels and not believe he killed him.
This post was edited on 7/28/15 at 8:19 am
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:21 am to Scruffy
quote:
I don't see how you can look at the final three panels and not believe he killed him.
Explain. I'm asking sincerely...like I said, I've read this book more times than I care to admit since getting it when it first came out and until this thread I'd never even considered that to be what happened. What are you guys seeing that I'm missing? Is it the joke and then the beam of light missing?
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:33 am to Scruffy
quote:
I don't see how you can look at the final three panels and not believe he killed him.
I personally think you're reading way too much into those last 3 panels.
Nowhere in those panels, or the previous panels does it show him choking the Joker, or doing anything that resembles killing him. I just think you have to read way too much into something that goes against the difference in how tragedy affected Batman and the Joker.
But it is an ambiguous ending, so I can see how some see it as him killing the Joker.
This post was edited on 7/28/15 at 8:35 am
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:41 am to Scruffy
quote:
He didn't kill him over that joke. He killed him because he realized that The Joker was unsavable and he has to.
The "killing joke" is The Joker's ultimate joke, that he could finally motivate Batman to end his life.
The joke he tells at the end is just a reflection of their lives. He can't escape. He is too crazy.
I don't see how you can look at the final three panels and not believe he killed him.
To be honest, the reason I've never thought too much of Batman killing the Joker in that comic is that I've always looked at The Killing Joke as canonical in almost every Batman canon I can think of. I just assumed he didn't kill the Joker because of that.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:45 am to Bamatab
quote:Then what is the point of the line separating Batman and The Joker, the mud crossing the line from The Joker's side to Batman's, and the final panel of the line gone entirely?
Nowhere in those panels, or the previous panels does it show him choking the Joker, or doing anything that resembles killing him.
Maybe I am reading to much into it, but I don't believe artists do things for no reason at all.
quote:The ending does allow for an ambiguous take which permits that. I just don't think that is what was intended.
To be honest, the reason I've never thought too much of Batman killing the Joker in that comic is that I've always looked at The Killing Joke as canonical in almost every Batman canon I can think of. I just assumed he didn't kill the Joker because of that.
This post was edited on 7/28/15 at 8:47 am
Posted on 7/28/15 at 8:56 am to Scruffy
quote:
Then what is the point of the line separating Batman and The Joker, the mud crossing the line from The Joker's side to Batman's, and the final panel of the line gone entirely?
I never noticed the mud separating them, but I'm not seeing what that would have to do with anything. I can see the suggestion that the lightbeam goes away, but again...I always read it much more literally then that.
Joker tells the joke. Bats smirks, and starts to laugh. He's already calmed down from when he was amped up and liable to kill Joker...Gordon saw to that back in the Funhouse. Joker tells him in his own way that he can't take him up on his offer and he knows that he was right...it will eventually end in one of them killing the other. Just not today...because Bats wouldn't just coldly reach out and choke him.
Bats reaches out and places his hand on Joker's shoulder as he's laughing and we see the police and hear the sirens. First panels is just looking at their feet as that happens. Second they've walked way towards the cars. Third is they've arrived and the sirens are off and the cycle is set to start over again with Joker in custody as Gordon wanted. Lack of lightbeam, for me, always was a nod to the joke that they couldn't trust each other...not that Joker was dead.
I'm open to hearing the alternative, really...I'm just not seeing it.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 9:03 am to GeauxTigerTM
Yea, I see your side too. That's the beauty of the ending I guess.
This movie has to end on that exact scene though, otherwise it will be a failure, IMO.
This movie has to end on that exact scene though, otherwise it will be a failure, IMO.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 9:08 am to GeauxTigerTM
I read it again last not. If the Killing Joke is Cannon then Batman could not have killed the Joker.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 9:16 am to Scruffy
quote:
Yea, I see your side too. That's the beauty of the ending I guess.
This movie has to end on that exact scene though, otherwise it will be a failure, IMO.
100% agreed. The ending of the movie has to be ambiguous or it ruins what made that book great for comics fans since.
Posted on 7/28/15 at 9:18 am to Scruffy
quote:
Yea, I see your side too. That's the beauty of the ending I guess.
This movie has to end on that exact scene though, otherwise it will be a failure, IMO.
Of course it should...why wouldn't it? Seems hard to pull off if you're trying to be ambiguous though, now that I'm thinking about it in your terms. The quiet, single frames lend themselves to wondering what happened inbetween frames. How do you get that same ambiguity with moving images? Not sure...eager to see it though!
And seriously...thanks for this. Brightened my morning to read this discussion. I've never been a big comic book guy, but I've read The Killing Joke a ton since I first got it. I was a nerd for this book and a handful of others around the time of the first Keaton Batman movie. This, Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Aslylum, Gotham by Gaslight, etc.
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