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re: Game of Thrones S4:E2:"The Lion and the Rose", HODORS ONLY (no book readers)
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:06 pm to Ace Midnight
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:06 pm to Ace Midnight
Why all the hate on us book readers?? Series has been around for like 20 years.
1
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:10 pm to The_Joker
quote:
What's the general consensus on who poisoned him in here?
JMO I would tend to rule out anyone in the Lannister family and Sansa. The Lannisters because it makes them look vulnerable to have this shite go down and Sansa because it would be inconsistent with her character. Sansa also seems unlikely because she seems to have been warned by someone else (the fool) with some sort of knowledge.
The most likely parties would seem to me to be:
Oberyn Martell (obvious hatred and motive but little opportunity if the poison was in the pie or cup)
Varys (his motive would be to remove a dangerous king since he seems to care for the fate of the realm above all. perhaps he hopes tommen or tyrion will end up with the throne instead of joffrey)
Olenna Tyrell (her motive would be to remove a mad king since she seems to have made inquiries via various routes on his legitimacy and temperment and she seems to have disapproved of the way he behaves in spite of her mostly pragmatic view of how the game of thrones is played).
Here's a perhaps worthless speculation. What would be pretty amazingly cool would be if Tommen turned out to be the one behind the death of Joffrey. If he were not an innocent but instead were truly conniving but patient presence (pretty much preternaturally mature and smart) he would be the ultimate heir than Tywin has wanted - even if him killing his older brother to achieve that goal were a bit bloody.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:11 pm to FourThinInches
you wouldn't like it if you were reading the book and someone came along to tell you how it ended. watching the series without having read the books is the equivalent
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:16 pm to molsusports
quote:
Olenna Tyrell (her motive would be to remove a mad king since she seems to have made inquiries via various routes on his legitimacy and temperment and she seems to have disapproved of the way he behaves in spite of her mostly pragmatic view of how the game of thrones is played).
If it were her she would have waited until after Margery was officially queen. I don't think she'd be willing to ruin they're chance at being part of the royal family just to kill Joffrey at the wedding.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:28 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:
If it were her she would have waited until after Margery was officially queen. I don't think she'd be willing to ruin they're chance at being part of the royal family just to kill Joffrey at the wedding.
But the line of succession would probably not be changed much (still Tommen and Stannis before her family) whether or not Joffrey died before or after the marriage were consummated. If they planned to off him then better to do it in a way that casts less suspicion on their family.
The other thing I can't get away from is the emphasis the cameras put on Olenna at different points. She is pointedly aware of the wine cup before Joffrey is served.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:51 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
And the true shame for Tywin - Joffrey was 200% Lannister.
Ewwwww yuck
Posted on 4/19/14 at 6:52 pm to molsusports
quote:
Olenna Tyrell
This was my thought as well. The idea was not only did she not personally like Joffrey but his death would put her family on the throne, after all they did get officially married right before his death.
Also, if I'm not mistaken didn't she say she paid for the wedding? Meaning she would've had control over the food and what was put in it? I guess they hinted that Joffrey got poisoned by the cup but I figured it might've been from that cake that he had just eaten.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 7:19 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
This was my thought as well. The idea was not only did she not personally like Joffrey but his death would put her family on the throne, after all they did get officially married right before his death.
I obviously think she's a prime suspect but not because she thinks it will directly put her family on the throne. I think she viewed joffrey as an unstable idiot who endangered his allies as well as his enemies.
I could be wrong but isn't the wedding not official until it is consummated? For that reason the virgin bride has been married twice yet remains unmarried?
I do wish it would turn out to be Tommen FWIW. I just don't think that's as likely.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 7:20 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
his death would put her family on the throne, after all they did get officially married right before his death.
It was before the marriage was consummated so they are SOL
That's why I don't think it was her
Posted on 4/19/14 at 7:45 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:quote:It was before the marriage was consummated so they are SOL
his death would put her family on the throne, after all they did get officially married right before his death.
I don't know if it matters if it was consummated or not. As long as Joffrey died without an heir, Margaery wouldn't still be queen. Cersei was only queen after Robert's death to serve as queen regent until Joffrey took the throne. For the time that Joffrey and Margaery were married, Cersei wasn't considered a queen anymore.
Now that Joffrey's dead, throne goes back to the "Baratheon" kids and Cersei is queen regent again.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 8:03 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:
Honestly anyone that isn't Cersei or a Tyrell has pretty strong motive
Cersei has all kinds of motive. Joffreys marriage to Margaery pretty much neutered her of all power. With Joff dead she is back to being Queen Regent until Tommen is of age (5 or so years). Basically we are back to her and Tywinn running everything and not having to deal with a sociopath.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 8:20 pm to BOSCEAUX
I have gone back and forth trying to figure out the assassin. It seems the tyrells have to be involved someway but a couple of hint drops make me wonder.
The Iron bank reference being one. The other was thinking back on the conversation Cersie had with Tywin. She said why don't you stop him from doing what he likes and said he will. They could be connected and have led to a larger conspiracy.
One other point was the throne room vision Bran had was the same one Danarys had in the Warloks tower. Don't know what it means though.
The Iron bank reference being one. The other was thinking back on the conversation Cersie had with Tywin. She said why don't you stop him from doing what he likes and said he will. They could be connected and have led to a larger conspiracy.
One other point was the throne room vision Bran had was the same one Danarys had in the Warloks tower. Don't know what it means though.
Posted on 4/19/14 at 10:36 pm to Jet12
Crown goes to Joffery's little brother?
Posted on 4/20/14 at 12:00 am to Cap Crunch
quote:
If it were her she would have waited until after Margery was officially queen. I don't think she'd be willing to ruin they're chance at being part of the royal family just to kill Joffrey at the wedding.
No. Completely erroneous. Marriages are predicated upon necessity. Joffrey dies, Lannisters still need Tyrells. Joffrey dies, crown passes to Tommen (most likely), and given that Tommen is almost of age and Margaery is still young, they probably marry down the road. I've posted this before, and I truly believe it. Tyrells have ZERO reason to not kill Joffrey and solid reasons to do it.
And I still think they did it with Tywins approval and knowledge.
Posted on 4/20/14 at 12:31 am to Jet12
quote:
I don't know if it matters if it was consummated or not. As long as Joffrey died without an heir, Margaery wouldn't still be queen. Cersei was only queen after Robert's death to serve as queen regent until Joffrey took the throne. For the time that Joffrey and Margaery were married, Cersei wasn't considered a queen anymore.
Now that Joffrey's dead, throne goes back to the "Baratheon" kids and Cersei is queen regent again.
I feel like that's a different scenario because Robert had an heir to pass the throne on to. Had the marriage been consummated then Joffrey died, I think Margery still would have been queen. At the very least she'd still be queen-regent until Tommen took the throne.
Posted on 4/20/14 at 12:32 am to BOSCEAUX
quote:
Cersei has all kinds of motive. Joffreys marriage to Margaery pretty much neutered her of all power. With Joff dead she is back to being Queen Regent until Tommen is of age (5 or so years). Basically we are back to her and Tywinn running everything and not having to deal with a sociopath.
I get what you're saying, but Cersei is the only one that actually cared about Joffrey, even if she knew he was a piece of shite
Besides, Tywin pretty much used all her power anyway
This post was edited on 4/20/14 at 12:34 am
Posted on 4/20/14 at 12:35 am to Matisyeezy
quote:
No. Completely erroneous. Marriages are predicated upon necessity. Joffrey dies, Lannisters still need Tyrells. Joffrey dies, crown passes to Tommen (most likely), and given that Tommen is almost of age and Margaery is still young, they probably marry down the road. I've posted this before, and I truly believe it. Tyrells have ZERO reason to not kill Joffrey and solid reasons to do it.
And I still think they did it with Tywins approval and knowledge.
That makes sense
I wasn't quite sure how the marriage agreement worked.
Posted on 4/20/14 at 3:54 am to Cap Crunch
I am shocked at how many people think Cersei did it. Literally nothing about the events leading up to it or her reaction after it gives any hint of that whatsoever. It makes zero sense IMO.
Meanwhile, in hindsight they literally beat us over the head with Olenna and the fool across both of the first two episodes.
Meanwhile, in hindsight they literally beat us over the head with Olenna and the fool across both of the first two episodes.
This post was edited on 4/20/14 at 3:56 am
Posted on 4/20/14 at 4:37 am to Roger Klarvin
I like betting the longshots.
I really do think Tywin is involved some way some how. He hated that little fricker.
I really do think Tywin is involved some way some how. He hated that little fricker.
Posted on 4/20/14 at 6:14 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Roger Klarvin
Some of your posts have been marked in this thread. What's up with that?
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