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re: What separates Derek Jeter from Craig Biggio? Is it only rings?
Posted on 2/14/14 at 2:57 pm to Baloo
Posted on 2/14/14 at 2:57 pm to Baloo
quote:
But, yes, let's give all of the credit for the Yankees turnaround to starting Jeter
Im not giving him all the credit.
the other guy was trying to give paul oneil, bernie williams, and Cone all the credit.
Just saying, ONeil and Williams were young veterans by the time jeter came on board. They hadn't won anything at that point.
quote:
. Not, you know, replacing over half of their starting lineup.
Don't get snarky. Read the damn thread.
3
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:00 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Just saying, ONeil and Williams were young veterans by the time jeter came on board. They hadn't won anything at that point.
Well, he had.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:01 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
You probably don't even know it, but you are scared to even compare his spikes to players from his era. Why? Because you know better. You have to dig back to the 60's-70's for these seasons to have any authenticity. And even then, you are reaching big time.
I went back to the 60s-70s to compare Biggio to guys throughout all of history. I also compared him to 80s-90s guys. I tried to use guys without steroid taint so you couldn't say "oh, that spike was due to steroids". I also, if you note, tried to keep it to middle infielders. I'm not scared of anything. I'm trying to bring in a broad section of data to show that this is not unusual at all. You do that, but showing guys throughout history doing it.
Guys have power spikes throughout all of history. That's what the evidence demonstrates. You need to explain it away because you have a conclusion you must make the evidence fit.
BTW, Whitaker AVERAGED 130 games and 509 PA's in that four year span.
Morgan was hurt his age 24 year, but averaged over 550 PA's ages 22-23.
Harrah merely averaged 120 games and 455 PA's ages 22-24.
But yeah, none of them were full time players. A sampling of 300+ games and 1500+ PA is not full time over a three year span.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:03 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Don't get snarky. Read the damn thread.
I am reading the thread. You point that Jeter's debut catapulted the Yankees to a title is absurb. It's not true. Completely flipping their roster is what did it. Changing 5 of 8 defensive starters and 3 of 5 pitchers is what lead to the improvement. Jeter doesn't get credit for being the secret sauce that got the Yankees back to the playoffs.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:03 pm to ZTiger87
quote:
1100 plate appearances vs 1200 for Biggio. Please try harder.
So a season and a half's worth? yea, thats insignificant.
quote:
Then why does Griffey get a pass? Arguably the best HR hitter of the steroid era. A large jump in HRs after 4 seasons in the majors and 2 seasons in the minors. Then after his peak he is plagued by injuries that aren't uncommon in PED users.
Im not saying Griffey never did steroids, but i think he gets a pass because he broke into the league at such a young age. He had played 4 seasons in the MLB season whereas most players would still be in the minors. Also his body type helped keep any suspicion off his back.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:03 pm to BayouBengals03
yea, as a Red. C'mon
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:06 pm to Baloo
quote:
I am reading the thread. You point that Jeter's debut catapulted the Yankees to a title is absurb
That wasn't my point. You didn't read the thread.
You could have easily said "Wah WAH WAH Bernie Williams & Paul O'Neil weren't the secret sauce!!!!"..when someone claimed them to be.
Instead you take a shot at my point around Jeter. All i said is they didn't win anything until he came aboard. The other 2 guys had been Yankees for years. Draw whatever conclusion you'd like.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 3:07 pm
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:07 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
So a season and a half's worth? yea, thats insignificant.
He had nearly the same amount of plate appearances as Biggio had. Why is it a mark against Biggio but not against Morgan? Why do you completely ignore that Biggio had 13 hrs in his 1st full season? As a catcher no less.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:07 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
the other guy was trying to give paul oneil, bernie williams, and Cone all the credit.
They don't get all the credit but they along with Marinao get more credit than Jeter for the overall turnaround of the franchise.
Now David Cone deserves basically all the credit for ending the playoff drought not Jeter who played in 15 measly games. The Yankees were set to miss the playoffs again until they traded for Cone who was an ace.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:12 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Instead you take a shot at my point around Jeter. All i said is they didn't win anything until he came aboard. The other 2 guys had been Yankees for years. Draw whatever conclusion you'd like.
At least have the courage of your convictions. This is just a total coward's argument. "I'm not saying, I'm just saying." Even in your denial, your pointing out that Jeter was the new player in 1996. Yes, so were 7 other regulars. You are trying to insinuate that Jeter was the thing that caused the Yankees to make it back to the playoffs, while also maintaining deniability that you are making that argument. It's just a total cop out. Make an argument.
The Yankees didn't win anything until Mariano Duncan came aboard. The other guys had been Yankees for years. Draw whatever conclusion you like.
quote:
That wasn't my point. You didn't read the thread.
You could have easily said "Wah WAH WAH Bernie Williams & Paul O'Neil weren't the secret sauce!!!!"..when someone claimed them to be.
dude, *I* made the point about Bernie Williams. Why would object to my own argument? How would reading the thread, which you obviously didn't, lead to me crying about someone advocating for Bernie's greatness. I made the argument for Bernie's greatness. In this thread. which I read. And even contributed in.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:19 pm to Baloo
I didn't read any of your posts until you responded to me. I was speaking of verlanders posts.
I'm not convinced jeter was responsible for the turn around, or trust me, I would totally own it. Baseball is a team game.
As far as some of the additions, some were lateral moves. Some were upgrades. The staffs ERA was actually lower in 95' than it was in 96'. If we want to talk immediate impacts,....
I'm not convinced jeter was responsible for the turn around, or trust me, I would totally own it. Baseball is a team game.
As far as some of the additions, some were lateral moves. Some were upgrades. The staffs ERA was actually lower in 95' than it was in 96'. If we want to talk immediate impacts,....
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:22 pm to Lester Earl
Jeter was the emtional leader and catalyst on those championship teams, theres a reason he was named captain. Does that make him solely responsible for the turn around, no. But the yankees dont win all those world series without him. Anyone who says otherwise didnt watch the yankees regularly through those years.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:27 pm to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
They don't get all the credit but they along with Marinao get more credit than Jeter for the overall turnaround of the franchise.
While this is still false, the real people who turned around the franchise were in the front office, while Steinbrenner was gone.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:28 pm to rutiger
quote:
Jeter was the emtional leader and catalyst on those championship teams, theres a reason he was named captain.
Again with this crap. Bernie Williams, Cone, O'Neil and Mariano all had more to do with turning around the Yankees than Jeter
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:30 pm to BayouBengals03
quote:
hile this is still false, the real people who turned around the franchise were in the front office, while Steinbrenner was gone.
This was even commented on extensively at the time. Steinbrenner's suspension was the best thing that ever happened to the Yankees, as they actually held on to some prospects for once.
And what a crop to hold on to.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:32 pm to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
Again with this crap. Bernie Williams, Cone, O'Neil and Mariano all had more to do with turning around the Yankees than Jeter
David Cone
It's so beyond crazy I can't even argue against it anymore.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:35 pm to Baloo
quote:
This was even commented on extensively at the time. Steinbrenner's suspension was the best thing that ever happened to the Yankees, as they actually held on to some prospects for once.
And what a crop to hold on to.
For sure. Unreal, looking back.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 3:36 pm to BayouBengals03
What were the Yankees in 1995 before they traded for Cone?
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:56 pm to VerlanderBEAST
They got McDowell and Strawberry. They got the Lefty they needed for the short porch. And McDowell was a power pitcher who was the Ace. I believe that was 95.
But you can also credit Wettland who came over from Montreal and Rivera was moved into set up.
But you can also credit Wettland who came over from Montreal and Rivera was moved into set up.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 9:58 pm
Posted on 2/14/14 at 10:04 pm to Moustache
quote:
quote:magine what he wouldnt have done without the steroids. Dude hit 27 HRs total in his first 4 full seasons. All of a sudden he was hitting 20 HRs on the reg on a team filled with notorious steroid users(caminiti, bagwell, finley, gonzalez)
Honest Question: Can someone provide a link that shows without a doubt that both Biggio And BAGWELL both juiced ? I don't mean that people assume they both were. Where are the facts both used PED's?
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