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re: People will never put Lebron on the same pedestal as they do MJ/Kobe
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:29 pm to The Midnight Rider
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:29 pm to The Midnight Rider
This is from a couple weeks ago, but the arguments still stand.
quote:
And to go a step further, LeBron's career playoff average PER is 0.8 higher than Kobe's best; LeBron's average Box +/- is 3.2 points higher than Kobe's career best; and LeBron's average WS/48 is better than all but one of Kobe's seasons.
In other words, peak playoff Kobe performed worse than career average playoff Lebron and it's not even very close. Kobe is not even in the same conversation as LeBron and MJ when it comes to performance.
1
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:34 pm to buckeye_vol
Get that shite out of here. Post some "killer instinct," "finisher," "closer," and "extra gear" stats. I'll also need you to quantify the competitive drive of both players. TIA.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:35 pm to Madking
quote:I think LeBron is a MJ/Magic hybrid, but quite the scoring focus of MJ and not quite the passing focus of Magic, but still great at both.
Jordan and Kobe were scorers Lebron is more like Magic and Bird where he leads his team by making the correct play.
And while Kobe's game was most like MJ, was obviously inferior in every aspect, and frankly not even as good of a scorer as LeBron.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:36 pm to Arkansasrazorback
Don't forget eye test and "shot difficulty" which was Kobe's specialty.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:44 pm to Arkansasrazorback
quote:The intangibles argument is stupid because people argue that we can't quantify them.
Get that shite out of here. Post some "killer instinct,"
This is nonsense, because while we can't directly measure and isolate them, they are part of the quantified data.
And there are a number of factors that are important. Their weighted importance will vary from player to player, but it all makes up the final product and performance.
We know that successful surgeons need to be intelligent and hard-working. Wouldn't one want the best surgeon if having brain surgery; it would he foolish to arbitrarily weight a factor and risk getting an inferior surgeon.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:48 pm to Drewbie
Why in the world would you put Kobe beside Jordan?
Posted on 5/23/17 at 6:52 pm to buckeye_vol
Lebron to me is more of a Magic/Malone hybrid. His floor game is a lot like Magics but the way he scores most is the same way Malone did, attacking the rim using his strength, of course with more range. As far as being a better scorer than Kobe I gotta disagree Kobe could beat you with the jumper from anywhere, could attack the rim and post up a lot like MJ where Lebron is limited in his actual moves and doesn't nearly have the jumper Kobe had, his shooting is basically a spot up jumper. My phone is messed up so I can't pull up their numbers but Kobe has avged 35 during a season, the most since MJs 37 and I don't believe Lebron could do that, 31.4 is his highest ever and has only broke 30ppg twice in his career.
This post was edited on 5/23/17 at 6:55 pm
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:03 pm to theducks
quote:
Don't forget eye test and "shot difficulty" which was Kobe's specialty.
The reason why people have this mental block when it comes to Kobe is they say they saw him make shots that no one else could make. We all saw that. Kobe is the best bad shot maker probably ever. But people confuse how hard something is with how great it makes you.
Kellerman nailed it again this morning; making difficult shots is not a more valuable skill than getting easier shots for yourself and others.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:04 pm to Madking
quote:That's reasonable.
Lebron to me is more of a Magic/Malone hybrid. His floor game is a lot like Magics but the way he scores most is the same way Malone did, attacking the rim using his strength, of course with more range.
quote:That's the thing. Moves are irrelevant, unless they actually result in scoring points. MJ had those moves, and was much better at scoring with them.
As far as being a better scorer than Kobe I gotta disagree Kobe could beat you with the jumper from anywhere, could attack the rim and post up a lot like MJ where Lebron is limited in his actual moves and doesn't nearly have the jumper Kobe had, his shooting is basically a spot up jumper
And whether that is 3 point shooting, layups, dunks, fade away midrange jumpers, or free throws, it doesn't make sense that one can be considered a better scorer, and score less and be less efficient at it.
Lebron has a higher average in both the regular season and playoffs, has a higher shooting percentage, 2 point shooting percentage, 3 point shooting percentage, effective field goal percentage, and true shooting percentage.
Kobe was a better free throw shooter though.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:06 pm to buckeye_vol
Does Kobe get credit for taking out the Spurs multiple times in their prime? Lebron lost to them at the end of their run.
This post was edited on 5/23/17 at 7:09 pm
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:15 pm to buckeye_vol
Your variety of scoring moves def matters. You're looking at this in the vacuum of Fg% which is a faulty way of comparing players because if that's the case Shaq is the best player of all time and Dennis Rodman or Deandre Jordan would be offensive weapons. I'm not saying Kobe was a better player I'd have them very close in comparison. Kobe won 2 titles with less help than any of Lebrons teams post 07. He had Gasol as the only borderline HOF type player on those teams and he won those titles against teams Lebron couldn't beat. I still believe Lebron is a little better overall as a player but I don't get why ppl minimize what Kobe did post Shaq based on something as trivial as fg%.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:32 pm to Madking
quote:
He had Gasol as the only borderline HOF type player on those teams
Gasol is not a "borderline" Hall of Famer. He's an absolute 100% lock Hall of Famer who was in his prime then. Andrew Bynum was one of the better centers in the league at the time. Lamar Odom was on the team. Ron Artest was on the second team. Those Laker teams were not bereft of talent outside of Kobe.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:39 pm to jprice4608
quote:Kobe gets credit for playing well (average game score of 18.2) but so does Lebron (average game score of (19.5). And the Spurs had an average SRS of 7.7 when Lebron played them compared to an 6.6 when Kobe played them. So while Lebron and Kobe played comparably well, the Spurs were a bit tougher when Lebron played them.
Does Kobe get credit for taking out the Spurs multiple times in their prime? Lebron lost to them at the end of their run.
And Kobe doesn't get to solely claim all the wins when his best teammate (Shaq) played considerably better (average game score 18) than Lebron's best teammates (Z in 2007 & D-Wade in 2013-2014) they had an average game score of 11.73).
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:42 pm to Arkansasrazorback
Gasol has never been first team All NBA. He shouldnt be in the HOF.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:47 pm to Madking
quote:No, but Shaq is obviously one of the best of all time, but he also averaged 24 points a game; he was still a scorer. DeAndre Jordan's superb field goal percentage is offset by his 12.7 points per game this season. He's not a scorer.
Your variety of scoring moves def matters. You're looking at this in the vacuum of Fg% which is a faulty way of comparing players because if that's the case Shaq is the best player of all time and Dennis Rodman or Deandre Jordan would be offensive weapons.
I'm saying that field goal percentage, combined with scoring output itself, provides a comprehensive story.
Kobe averaged 25.0 PPG on 19.5 FGA in the regular season, and 25.6 PPG on 20.5 FGA in playoffs. That's 1.28 points per shot (PPS) in the regular season and 1.25 in the playoffs.
Lebron averages 27.1 PPG on 19.6 FGA in the regular season and 28.2 PPG on 20.6 FGA in the playoffs. That's 1.38 PPS in the regular season and 1.37 in the playoffs.
So not only does Lebron have higher scoring averages, he does it at a much more efficiently. It's hard to say Kobe was a better scorer when he was less efficient AND averaged fewer points.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:51 pm to Arkansasrazorback
Never said they were what I said was Lebrons heat teams and 2nd round of Cavs teams were better. As far as Gasol he's a HOFer because of his entire career not just his NBA career. The basketball hall of fame isn't the NBA hall of game there's a big difference and his best all around years came before he was a Laker. You also can't compare Bynum Artest or Lamar Odom (a 6th man) to Kyrie Irvin Kevin Love Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh, Lebrons teams have more talent.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:53 pm to buckeye_vol
You fail to include the fact that Kobes career is over and he suffered through sub par years in his last 4 seasons and his first few because of circumstance and injury where Lebron is at his apex right now. Compare their scoring numbers either at their best or after Lebron is done. Lebron is a better all around player but saying he's a better scorer is wrong and biased. Omitting context in regards to Kobe but using it as a pillar of Lebrons status proves bias.
This post was edited on 5/23/17 at 8:07 pm
Posted on 5/23/17 at 7:54 pm to jprice4608
quote:He was a third team forward in 2009 and 2010, second team forward in 2011, second team center in 2015.
Gasol has never been first team All NBA. He shouldnt be in the HOF.
These were the players who were in the teams ahead of him at the respective positions.
2009 Forwards
Dirk
Lebron
Duncan
Pierce
2010 Forwards
Durant
Lebron
Carmelo
Dirk
2011 Forwards
Durant
Lebron
2015 Center
Marc Gasol
So when you're not on the first team because of Lebron, Durant, Dirk, and Duncan, it's hardly an indictment on him as a player.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 8:04 pm to buckeye_vol
I wouldn't put Melo in the HOF either, but Im sure they will.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 8:07 pm to Madking
quote:Kobe became a starter in his third season, and Lebron made the playoffs in his third year, so this becomes a good starting point for 12 seasons, although Kobe didn't make the playoffs one year in that time span, it also includes all of their championship and finals seasons.
You fail to include the fact that Kobes career is over and he suffered through sub par years in his last 4 seasons and his first few because of circumstance where Lebron is at his apex right now. Compare their scoring numbers either at their best or after Lebron is done. Lebron is a better all around player but saying he's a better scorer is wrong and biased. Omitting context proves bias.
Kobe Averages:
Regular Season--27.6 PPG on 21.1 FGA for 1.31 PPS
Playoffs--27.4 PPG on 21.8 FGA for 1.26 PPS
Lebron Averages:
Regular Season--27.7 PPG on 19.5 FGA for 1.42 PPS
Playoffs--28.2 PPG on 20.6 FGA for 1.37 PPS
So again, apples to apples comparison and Lebron scores more points, and considerably more efficiently.
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