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Are we teetering on the edge of a major pullback or crash in Real Estate?

Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:00 am
Posted by Azazello
Member since Sep 2011
3182 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:00 am
I'm pulling from a combination of sources for this one and I'd like to get everyone's thoughts. Sources: friend at a top REPE fund, online discussions, personal observations.

I recently moved from Denver to North Carolina and had some drive time to collect my thoughts. During my several years of living in Denver, housing prices not only skyrocketed, but also apartment and multifamily (MF) building exploded. The residential market is crazy competitive with people paying way above asking price (often in cash). One thing that really became apparent during our last months was that a lot of these luxury apartment buildings were sitting 3/4 empty - but they keep building and building.

I have been told that there are similar situations in Austin and Nashville. The RE market in LA and SF has been totally out of whack since 08 and all of the foreign money is gobbling up properties.

Here are a few other discussions (from WSO and a few other forums I follow)

quote:

In the last 60 days I've seen so many deals fall out. Not just mine but other brokers across several asset classes. Buyers are hyper critical of everything. Sellers still want crazy money...Apartment investors selling at 4 caps and trying to buy retail at a 6. They see the end in sight of the multifamily run up. Something is happening.

Something weird is in the air. On the resi for sale side, due to lack of inventory, which leads to lack of volume and lower income, I'm seeing a lot of real estate offices closing here in San Diego.

Low inventory, low volume, high prices, discount brokerages now opening, all signs of the end, lol. I know a higher up and Trammel Crow. His words "multifamily is teetering"


quote:

Just another anecdotal piece to back this - the MF team in my office has been boggled over pricing on deals in our market for about 2 months now. I regularly hear exclamations about the absurdity of it all. They're urging owners to get their assets to market now. This is a major US Metro area and this team has been selling these same assets for decades.


quote:


Multifamily value-add is very frothy right now. This has resulted in the displacement of a lot of new construction core/core+ deals as institutional capital chases value-add yields. Pricing is dropping on these assets--in some cases, dramatically. As in, marketed for $400k/door, trading at $360/door with brokers telling buyers that the seller wants to sell, drop in pricing be damned. There's an opportunity to take on the lease-up risk of these types of assets, purchase at a very attractive basis, hold for what (probably) will be a few years of volatility, and do well on disposition.

I'm with you that a correction could be near, but don't think multifamily is going to collapse. Maybe certain types of MF assets are "teetering," but the asset class as a whole has a lot going for it. If we see a correction, we could see moderate pullback before things pick up again. The demographic trends supporting multifamily demand well into the next decade are striking:

Unemployment continues to decline and the Federal Reserve projects stabilized unemployment of 4.5% through 2019--these are historically low numbers

Homeownership continues to decline and is projected to fall to 60.8% by 2025, the lowest level since the 1950s
As younger generations age, homeownership will rise, but still remain 7-11% below the levels of prior generations at the same age...where will these people live? (JBRC report)

Student debt is getting out of control. In 2003, outstanding student loan balances were $243 billion. The NY Fed just put out a report pegging the recent number at $1.3 trillion. In a 2017 report by the National Association of Realtors, student debt was the most cited reason young buyers under the age of 36 cannot afford a down payment on a home, beating out CC debt, car loans, and health care costs by more than 20%

The US Census projects that the age cohort of 18-44 year olds will expand from roughly 115M in 2015 to more than 126M in 2030; virtually all of these additional 10M residents will, at one point or another, be a renter

Household formations continue to be delayed (a major historical marker signaling a shift from renting to owning), and the median age of marriage continues to increase for both men and women (currently 29.5 for men, 27.4 for women)

One area I agree could be problematic: 2017 is the year of peak supply for multifamily completions, but these are projected to fall below the historical average of 336,400 in 2018/2019

There isn't enough single family supply. Freddie projects demand for SF housing will be roughly 1.5M units/year over the next decade, while the National Association for Home Builders forecasts yearly avg. SF starts in 2017/2018 to be just 908K. Part of the reason behind this is that builders are having trouble making affordable entry-level product pencil, so they're building more expensive homes that large swathes of the US population can't afford.

Related to the previous point, resale homes are increasingly unaffordable as well. The historical spread between new and resale pricing is $19,000. As of 2017, this has ballooned to more than $80,000. Again, if single family is increasingly unaffordable, where will people live?


LINK to discussion on LA Housing Bubble


This post was edited on 6/17/17 at 8:27 am
Posted by baldona
Florida
Member since Feb 2016
20397 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:06 am to
A crash means there's a bubble, I don't see that. Those cities you mentioned are the top growing areas in the country so the influx of people explains the price increases and is natural. I think prices have to plateau soon though. It's a great time to sell.

The bubble in 2006 was because people making $100k were buying $600k+ houses with 0 down, houses there was absolutely no way they could afford long term. More importantly people with poor credit making $30k a year were buying $200k houses. The poor people aren't buying houses right now, and the middle class is buying towards the top of their budget ability but I don't think it's quite gotten out of control long term.
Posted by leoj
Member since Nov 2010
3106 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:48 am to
I would like to think there is a bubble in Dallas but I really don't think so. They keep building apartment complexes and housing prices keep going up but seems like everything is being filled. I would love to see specific numbers for the area
Posted by Paul Allen
Montauk, NY
Member since Nov 2007
75152 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:56 am to
Atlanta was growing by leaps and bounds in the mid to late 90's into the early 2000's. I remember seeing all the cranes in Midtown and Buckhead areas. They were hit hard by the 2008 financial crisis, but they've seemed to recover.
Posted by cmlsu
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Aug 2011
659 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 2:49 pm to
As Warren Buffett says...be fearful when everyone else is greedy, be greedy when everyone else is fearful.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1471 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 3:24 pm to
Slightly off from the RE you were talking about, but I think farmland is pretty topped out.

We saw a lot of guys in the business buying land during the commodity highs a few years ago and lots of outside investment after commodities softened and land kept going up. When the grain bulls ran out of steam MOST ag items pulled back in price a good bit (tractors, harvesters, crop inputs, etc.), but not farmland values.

The prices that I've seen even mediocre ground go for in recent years are simply ridiculous. It doesn't even begin to cash flow for someone in the business, and even if a person happened to be lucky enough to have a pocket full of cash and not be paying interest we're not talking ROI's of greater than ~4%. Add increasing interest rates to the equation and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the outside investors start jumping ship back to stocks soon.

And when all that land hits the market and no one wants it but currently poor farmers where will said prices go?

Posted by jimbeam
University of LSU
Member since Oct 2011
75703 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 4:47 pm to
100% agree. Cannot state that enough. Rent prices, land purchase prices, stupid high.
Posted by GREENHEAD22
Member since Nov 2009
19583 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 4:47 pm to
And ill be waiting, hopefully with a big enough checkbook.
This post was edited on 6/17/17 at 4:49 pm
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
421722 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 5:09 pm to
quote:

The bubble in 2006 was because people making $100k were buying $600k+ houses with 0 down, houses there was absolutely no way they could afford long term. More importantly people with poor credit making $30k a year were buying $200k houses. The poor people aren't buying houses right now, and the middle class is buying towards the top of their budget ability but I don't think it's quite gotten out of control long term.

the scary interpretation is that the middle class has over-extended itself this time and having that group (as opposed to the lower-end you described) go belly up could be a much, much worse scenario
Posted by racknreel
death valley
Member since Oct 2010
144 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 5:12 pm to
It's not a bubble, it's the peak of what the market can handle. People are confusing high prices for a bubble. Shits selling, just not a rapidly as we are acquainted with.

People that can afford housing are paying for housing and I mean up front too. People that shouldn't be buying aren't buying, this is why it's different now than 2008.
Posted by Serraneaux
South of 30a
Member since Mar 2014
19606 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:42 pm to
There aren't high priced apartment buildings sitting 3/4ths empty in nashville. Maybe if they aren't done yet.

Also, as long as people from bigger cities keep moving to Nashville from DC, NYC, Chicago, California, it's still a bargain to them.

I still don't understand how people are affording rent though. You have younger kids right out of college happily forking over 2k for a 2 br apartment or townhouse. These new complexes going up aren't going for under 2k/month or 300k for a 2 br close to downtown.

Two of my rentals are paying the same or more what I am paying for my mortgage. I am about to flip a house that is 1500 square feet for about $360k. That's still a deal when you think your rent would be the same if not higher than the mortgage note.
This post was edited on 6/17/17 at 8:52 pm
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
70880 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:44 pm to
quote:

Atlanta was growing by leaps and bounds in the mid to late 90's into the early 2000's. I remember seeing all the cranes in Midtown and Buckhead areas. They were hit hard by the 2008 financial crisis, but they've seemed to recover.



Last I saw they were up to $283/sqft. Bad sign.
Posted by Paul Allen
Montauk, NY
Member since Nov 2007
75152 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:47 pm to
Way too high
Posted by zatetic
Member since Nov 2015
5677 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 8:52 pm to
Canada just did a bail in of one of their largest real estate groups, using some group's retirement money, a couple months ago or so. It was rumored to be the start of the dominoes across the commonwealth nations. I guess it either didn't catch or, as always, the ability of the top to steal other's money was underestimated.

Google just started building housing for its workers in San Fran. Apparently their workers can't afford to live there anymore
Posted by GreatLakesTiger24
COINTELPRO Fan
Member since May 2012
55554 posts
Posted on 6/17/17 at 10:06 pm to
quote:

I still don't understand how people are affording rent though. You have younger kids right out of college happily forking over 2k for a 2 br apartment or townhouse. These new complexes going up aren't going for under 2k/month or 300k for a 2 br close to downtown.
I have 22-25 year old coworkers who make about 45k spending $1300 on rent. No thanks.
Posted by reb13
Member since May 2010
10905 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 12:31 am to
quote:

I would like to think there is a bubble in Dallas but I really don't think so


I hope for it everyday. But if I had the cash it would all be put in single family homes. Town houses will be the death of themselves, there are just too many many of Them.
Posted by GFunk
Denham Springs
Member since Feb 2011
14966 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 1:19 am to
Major Metro areas do not drive the market as a whole. Middle America does.

GMFS here locally lent a billion dollars last year. They aren't lending for multifamily. That's SFR. This is a state that was only this week declared out of the recession by the state's chief economist.

The contractors you're talking about and/or inferring are your boots on the ground confirmation are in huge markets. Their concept of affordable single family housing is so far removed from a place like Baton Rouge, or metro San Antonio or Des Moines it's laughable they even use the term.

Their reality in the industry is so far apart from that of contractors and devs in Middle America, the South etc. that it's not really credible to take their experiences or the peoople that are using them as reference points and paint a National or macro picture IMO.
This post was edited on 6/18/17 at 1:20 am
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32089 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 6:18 am to
quote:

You have younger kids right out of college happily forking over 2k for a 2 br apartment or townhouse. These new complexes going up aren't going for under 2k/month or 300k for a 2 br close to downtown


Are wages high enough in Nashville to support and sustain that?
This post was edited on 6/18/17 at 6:20 am
Posted by ItNeverRains
37069
Member since Oct 2007
25397 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 6:29 am to
We are nearing the top here in Middle TN. Inventory is still miserably low and sellers trying to gouge are seeing properties sitting longer than the previous 2-3 years run up. Expert forecast says we (middle TN) will see correction May 2020 and hasn't deviated from that stance. Also says we'll revert back to 2016 prices (the horror) and from there our market is going to explode to levels of other major metropolitan areas.

Other markets I can't speak for, but Middle TN's is nowhere near a bubble. In 98 counties combined there are less than 20 short sales or foreclosures.
Posted by crazycubes
Member since Jan 2016
5256 posts
Posted on 6/18/17 at 10:10 am to
Every market is quasi local.

Houston RE inside I-610 loop: crazy
Houston RE outside TX-99 loop: level to meh
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