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re: Reggie Bush = Bust?
Posted on 3/28/16 at 8:21 pm to PurpleDrank18
Posted on 3/28/16 at 8:21 pm to PurpleDrank18
He was only here five years and ranks high in all those categories. He did a lot of things and did most pretty well. He was an important versital part of our team. Barry Sanders from Tecmo Super Bowl does't actually exist. What more do you want?
Posted on 3/28/16 at 8:26 pm to sonicsam
Reggie was exiting , we should have changed our offense to accommodate him. More open, more motion like Philly. Square peg in a round hole.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 8:32 pm to Brandincookem
quote:and he was exciting too!
Reggie was exiting
Posted on 3/28/16 at 8:34 pm to Suntiger
Like I've been saying, everything in life has its proper context. Had Reggie been drafted in the 2nd round or later, he would have been considered a really good pick. But considering where he was taken, he was underwhelming. A #2 overall pick shouldn't be just a "solid contributor".
Prospects are not graded equally. It all depends on what the cost was. a 6th round pick who doesn't make it through training camp is not a bust. The odds were against him from the beginning, and he had an uphill battle to begin with. Alternatively a 1st or 2nd round pick doesn't make it through training camp, and he's a huge bust. Two different players, same result, different views.
I think a general timeline/guide from what to expect a top-5 pick to look like is something like this: Years 1-2, solid/quality starter. Years 3-6, fighting for probowl spots, years 5+ in the conversation for all-pro at their position. Mack and Von are perfect examples of what is EXPECTED out of a top-5 pick. Does that always come to fruition? No. But Reggie wasn't even close to these expectations.
Again, like I said, it's all relative. Reggie was the #2 pick and didn't live up to the expectations that come with that selection, not even close really. Had he been taken lower, the cost would have been less, thus the expectations lower, equaling a career without the bust stigma attached to him.
Prospects are not graded equally. It all depends on what the cost was. a 6th round pick who doesn't make it through training camp is not a bust. The odds were against him from the beginning, and he had an uphill battle to begin with. Alternatively a 1st or 2nd round pick doesn't make it through training camp, and he's a huge bust. Two different players, same result, different views.
I think a general timeline/guide from what to expect a top-5 pick to look like is something like this: Years 1-2, solid/quality starter. Years 3-6, fighting for probowl spots, years 5+ in the conversation for all-pro at their position. Mack and Von are perfect examples of what is EXPECTED out of a top-5 pick. Does that always come to fruition? No. But Reggie wasn't even close to these expectations.
Again, like I said, it's all relative. Reggie was the #2 pick and didn't live up to the expectations that come with that selection, not even close really. Had he been taken lower, the cost would have been less, thus the expectations lower, equaling a career without the bust stigma attached to him.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:01 pm to PurpleDrank18
So who did you want at 2? Kamerion Wimberly who went 13th? Vince Young who went 3rd? A.J. Hawk who went 5th? Mario Williams who was 1st overall?
Haloti Ngata who went 12th was the best pick of the first round. It wasn't that great of a draft. Ryan Leaf is a bust. Matt Leinert is a bust. Greg Oden is a bust. Anyone who plays 10 years in the NFL isn't really a bust.
And nobody could live up to his USC hype. He'd have had to be a 7 time MVP with 6 Super Bowls and 4 Super Bowl MVPs and an all pro every year to have lived up to that hype. Most reasonable fans had reasonable expectations.
Haloti Ngata who went 12th was the best pick of the first round. It wasn't that great of a draft. Ryan Leaf is a bust. Matt Leinert is a bust. Greg Oden is a bust. Anyone who plays 10 years in the NFL isn't really a bust.
And nobody could live up to his USC hype. He'd have had to be a 7 time MVP with 6 Super Bowls and 4 Super Bowl MVPs and an all pro every year to have lived up to that hype. Most reasonable fans had reasonable expectations.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:13 pm to Suntiger
How his peers did has no bearing on this conversation, and you're starting to walk down a separate road. His draftmates being busts and him being a bust are not mutually exclusive. Just because it was a weak draft doesn't mean he didn't under-performed significantly for his draft position. He still could have performed up to expectations of #2 overall regardless of what happened to the other guys, but he didn't. That had absolutely no affect on his personal career.
This post was edited on 3/28/16 at 9:14 pm
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:17 pm to PurpleDrank18
quote:
I think a lot of y'all aren't looking at this in the right context. Given that he was drafted 2nd overall, yes he is a bust. Is he a bust in terms of the average NFL player? No he was a solid contributor for a SB team, and a couple teams afterwards. But he put up nowhere near the production you would hope for/ expect from a #2 overall pick. The return definitely did not match the cost.
Now don't get me wrong, like I said in my first post, I think he was a big part of that SB team, and I like Reggie. I always rooted for him in Miami and Detroit. However that doesn't take away from the fact that in the correct context, he has been a bust. It is what it is. That's not to say he wasn't a solid player tho.
Go back and look at that draft. If they did a redraft, knowing what we know now, do you think Reggie would still be a top-10 pick? top-15? I don't.
Since 2006 these were the top two picks and allpros/pro bowls.
2006:
Mario Williams: All-Pro
Reggie Bush: None
2007:
JaMarcus Russell: None
Calvin Johnson: All-Pro
2008:
Jake Long: All-Pro
Chris Long: Pro-Bowl
2009:
Matthew Stafford: Pro-Bowl
Jason Smith: None
2010:
Sam Bradford: None
Ndamukong Suh: All-Pro
2011:
Cam Newton: All-Pro
Von Miller: All-Pro
2012:
Andrew Luck: Pro-Bowl
RG3: Pro-Bowl
2013:
Eric Fisher: None
Luke Joeckel: None
2014:
Jadaveon Clowney: None
Greg Robinson: None
2015:
Jameis Winston: Pro-Bowl
Marcus Mariota: None
"bust rate" is pretty high
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:22 pm to htran90
yes...excluding 2014 and 2015(because it's a bit too early to call for those and they're not in that 3+ year window yet) I would say everybody who doesn't have a pro bowl/all-pro label next to them is widely considered a bust...but for some reason since one of those happens to be a Saint, we can't admit that.
As I've said throughout this entire thread, Reggie was a solid contributor for us, and wasn't "bad". But given where he was taken he is a bust for the price.
As I've said throughout this entire thread, Reggie was a solid contributor for us, and wasn't "bad". But given where he was taken he is a bust for the price.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:22 pm to PurpleDrank18
You're talking about his draft position being determinative of expectations. If no body else worth a damn was in his draft class then of course his draft position will be higher. If Bo Jackson, Peyton Manning, John Elway and Charles Woodson are in the same class he will go lower. Where he is drafted has something to do with who else is in the class.
He had a ton of hype from college. Too much. He wasn't an all pro. But he wasn't a bust.
He had a ton of hype from college. Too much. He wasn't an all pro. But he wasn't a bust.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:27 pm to Suntiger
Now you're using hindsight to back up your side. Nobody KNEW those guys would suck and bust so hard. No GM had a fortune teller in their draft room and had the conversation, "Oh man everybody in this draft will turn out to suck, so lets take the guy who will suck the least." How did you, or anybody else, know everybody else wouldn't "be worth a damn". You can't use this argument.
And actually at the time that draft seemed like it was loaded with talent.
And actually at the time that draft seemed like it was loaded with talent.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:43 pm to PurpleDrank18
You're saying he went second overall so he has to be an all pro. If where he went is what you're judging it on, then you have to look at who else is in the draft class. What if he was the 5th pick? Or the 4th? Doesn't that depend on who else is in the draft class? Isn't every 1st round pick considered to be a good player? Are you the guy who thinks supermodels are fat? There are only so many all pro spots. Over the past 10 years the all pro RBs are Adrian Peterson (multiple times), Chris Johnson (once), LeSean McCoy (twice), M. Lynch (once) and Demarco Murray (once).
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:51 pm to Suntiger
Not only was he not All-Pro he wasn't even ever voted to a Pro Bowl, even with how everybody gets in as alternatives recently. And again, his peers have absolutely NOTHING to do with his career and how he performed. When a team drafts a guy #2 overall they expect that path and timeline I laid out earlier. Reggie wasn't even close to that.
You're also helping my point from earlier. Had he been drafted later. (2nd round or so) he wouldn't have this bust label because his production would have matched his cost/expectations of said cost. However he wasn't drafted later, he was drafted extremely high, where expectations are higher. And he failed to even come close to those expectations. (expectations of an average #2 overall pick at the time of the selection, not the expectations of USC Reggie Bush).
Like I said, you're using hindsight again, because you now know, in 2016, that many of the first rounders in 2006 would turn out to not be good. And you're using these facts to help you. That's not fair to this discussion.
You're also helping my point from earlier. Had he been drafted later. (2nd round or so) he wouldn't have this bust label because his production would have matched his cost/expectations of said cost. However he wasn't drafted later, he was drafted extremely high, where expectations are higher. And he failed to even come close to those expectations. (expectations of an average #2 overall pick at the time of the selection, not the expectations of USC Reggie Bush).
Like I said, you're using hindsight again, because you now know, in 2016, that many of the first rounders in 2006 would turn out to not be good. And you're using these facts to help you. That's not fair to this discussion.
Posted on 3/28/16 at 9:57 pm to sonicsam
I liked the pick and he did what Sean Payton asked of him. He would have never had a Barry sanders like career even if he was as good as sanders because of the style of offense we run. He did what the coaches asked of him and he did it well.
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