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Message
The Fundamental Flaw in every last God/No God thread ever on this board
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:01 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:01 pm
The flaw is simple. The conversation takes place where the word "God" is never defined and the arguments vacillate between arguments that might be over the question "Is there a God of the Bible" to being over "Is there some all powerful force that created the universe" to "could there have been supremely advanced beings that created the universe?
The problem is, often, you see counter arguments that apply to ONE of the above being used to apply to a different element of the above. IE, the "eyeball" argument used by people as support for the God of the Bible when all it really supports(if anything) is the idea of SOME creator who may or may not be supernatural. And frick, even supernatural is problematic here. What if a supremely advanced race from ANOTHER universe is in the universe creating business. They would exist OUTSIDE our "nature" so, they'd be "supernatural". LOL
And BOTH the theists and the atheists have this problem. Basically, the core discussion takes place as if it was still 500AD.
You see theists using "evidence" that really just supports the idea that there had to be some "designer" but that really is only evidence of about 100 possible designers even if accepted as evidence at all.
On the other side, you get atheists who travel from the reasonable, "the God of the Bible is a highly suspect concept" to the absurd "we can absolutely know that there is no creative force responsible for our universe at all.
Then, we call people who recognize that we can't possibly fathom what supremely advanced beings might be capable "agnostics" but that term loses all meaning if we are suddenly expanding "God" to mean "anything other than completely random shite happening".
OK. Soap box complete.
The problem is, often, you see counter arguments that apply to ONE of the above being used to apply to a different element of the above. IE, the "eyeball" argument used by people as support for the God of the Bible when all it really supports(if anything) is the idea of SOME creator who may or may not be supernatural. And frick, even supernatural is problematic here. What if a supremely advanced race from ANOTHER universe is in the universe creating business. They would exist OUTSIDE our "nature" so, they'd be "supernatural". LOL
And BOTH the theists and the atheists have this problem. Basically, the core discussion takes place as if it was still 500AD.
You see theists using "evidence" that really just supports the idea that there had to be some "designer" but that really is only evidence of about 100 possible designers even if accepted as evidence at all.
On the other side, you get atheists who travel from the reasonable, "the God of the Bible is a highly suspect concept" to the absurd "we can absolutely know that there is no creative force responsible for our universe at all.
Then, we call people who recognize that we can't possibly fathom what supremely advanced beings might be capable "agnostics" but that term loses all meaning if we are suddenly expanding "God" to mean "anything other than completely random shite happening".
OK. Soap box complete.
21
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:03 pm to ShortyRob
You're pretty high right now aren't you?
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:06 pm to ShortyRob
God loves atheists too, he created them in his own image. If we keep debating them on this board one day they will look up from their keyboards and see the light of Christ
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:16 pm to ShortyRob
Agnostics are just those who are intellectually lazy and never thought about the subject hard enough. 
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:26 pm to ShortyRob
Lots of words....
I'm going to deal with the bit about the Agnostics, since I believe the vast majority of Atheists to be incredulous and dogmatic to a flaw.
Interestingly enough, a first century lawyer coined the term 'agnostic' while he was traveling through the Areopagus. Acts 17:23 says Paul observed and altar dedicated 'To an Unknown God'. So unwittingly, agnostics beliefs are based on a term an apostle/Christian disciple used for the first time.
Irony at its finest. If God is truly 'unknowable', what's the point in learning new things? There are scientists and so-called intellectuals that are starting to admit that the designs around them speak to an intelligence far superior to ours.
An alien race? Unlikely. Exactly what the Bible says? Have some faith
I'm going to deal with the bit about the Agnostics, since I believe the vast majority of Atheists to be incredulous and dogmatic to a flaw.
Interestingly enough, a first century lawyer coined the term 'agnostic' while he was traveling through the Areopagus. Acts 17:23 says Paul observed and altar dedicated 'To an Unknown God'. So unwittingly, agnostics beliefs are based on a term an apostle/Christian disciple used for the first time.
Irony at its finest. If God is truly 'unknowable', what's the point in learning new things? There are scientists and so-called intellectuals that are starting to admit that the designs around them speak to an intelligence far superior to ours.
An alien race? Unlikely. Exactly what the Bible says? Have some faith
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:34 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
The Fundamental Flaw in every last God/No God thread ever on this board
Is that people actually participate in them
Posted on 9/21/17 at 2:42 pm to ShortyRob
The whole argument is like two blind people debating color. Neither one is properly equipped.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:39 pm to ShortyRob
Did you just read Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion? Your post reminded me of it.
And I think your diagnosis of the kind of low-brow theological discussion that can be found in this forum is fair and accurate.
But in slightly more academic forums, one will distinguish among a demiurge, a deistic god, a theistic god, and even more personal gods.
And I think your diagnosis of the kind of low-brow theological discussion that can be found in this forum is fair and accurate.
But in slightly more academic forums, one will distinguish among a demiurge, a deistic god, a theistic god, and even more personal gods.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 3:49 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
we can't possibly fathom what supremely advanced beings might be capable
If a being could create human beings, that being could make them capable of knowing him. We don't have to measure the full depth of something to know it.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 4:05 pm to ShortyRob
I don't see a problem with both logic/science and the supernatural coexisting. It seems a lot of people prefer going black/white with it though--either it's all science based and God is BS or science is BS and it's God based.
I might be the only one who thinks the complexity of human life, how life on earth evolved to humans as we know it etc, actually demonstrates that there is a God, a supernatural creator etc who first put the workings and rationale of science into motion. A supernatural creator created a world that can now be (mostly) explained by logic and science.
Having said that I don't give a shite what one believes or doesn't. Whatever makes you happy and gives you strength, go with it.
I might be the only one who thinks the complexity of human life, how life on earth evolved to humans as we know it etc, actually demonstrates that there is a God, a supernatural creator etc who first put the workings and rationale of science into motion. A supernatural creator created a world that can now be (mostly) explained by logic and science.
Having said that I don't give a shite what one believes or doesn't. Whatever makes you happy and gives you strength, go with it.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 4:07 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 4:47 pm to ShortyRob
The Fundamental Flaw is this:
Every living being is born with a fundamental inate desire to believe and worship.
What someone chooses to believe is where the flaw arises.
Theists (as you state) believe in a Creator; The Almighty.
Atheists believe that there is no God.
Agnostics believe it's unknown.
All believers, 3.
Every living being is born with a fundamental inate desire to believe and worship.
What someone chooses to believe is where the flaw arises.
Theists (as you state) believe in a Creator; The Almighty.
Atheists believe that there is no God.
Agnostics believe it's unknown.
All believers, 3.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 4:49 pm to ShortyRob
Religious threads allowed again? Time to bring back Rex?
Posted on 9/21/17 at 4:51 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
On the other side, you get atheists who travel from the reasonable, "the God of the Bible is a highly suspect concept" to the absurd "we can absolutely know that there is no creative force responsible for our universe at all.
Where did the creative force responsible for our universe come from? I'm pretty sure that's where all theist arguments fall apart.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 4:54 pm to ShortyRob
No one knows, you know?
We'll all find out one day. Or we won't.
That about sums it up.
We'll all find out one day. Or we won't.
That about sums it up.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:08 pm to ShortyRob
God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
-- John Lennon
-- John Lennon
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:24 pm to ShortyRob
I was a christian, then became an atheist. Now I am kind of in the middle.
In the end, neither side had all the answers. So my logical conclusion was simply, "I don't know".
It's really the only rational decision I could have after research, trying to involve myself with both sides. That we really just do not know.
I feel there is probably something greater than us. Not any religious version of "God" but just something. Defining it is simply childish, for if it is there, it is far beyond our brain power to be able to define such an amazing force or being.
So let's say God exist. In some sense. Well science does too. You can't tell me there isn't enough evidence for Evolution. Just stop. It's time to accept that it's far and simply the better idea when compared to creationism.
Now. That doesn't mean creationism is not real. If there is a higher power, it created something. I just believe the evolution(s)science has shown significant evidence of still occured. Maybe the "God" simply set things in motion.
My issue with the big bang theory is simple. Something creating from absolute nothing. Just never found out how that was possible. I have read tons of articles, read books on the theory, and just come to the same conclussion. The Universe is expanding, it was once smaller, but no one can answer how the original process occured. Yes I know of the bang itself and the negative, positive blah blah blah. I want the simple answer. How was it possible to have that level of energy create from absolute nothingness? It's just not possible. So SOMETHING had to start the process.
So I am right in the middle. I respect science, I think it is spot on in a lot of areas. I also respect the idea of something greater than us. I just choose not to put a face on said entity, nor define it's power. I can't, because I am not intelligent enough too(and neither are you).
In the end, neither side had all the answers. So my logical conclusion was simply, "I don't know".
It's really the only rational decision I could have after research, trying to involve myself with both sides. That we really just do not know.
I feel there is probably something greater than us. Not any religious version of "God" but just something. Defining it is simply childish, for if it is there, it is far beyond our brain power to be able to define such an amazing force or being.
So let's say God exist. In some sense. Well science does too. You can't tell me there isn't enough evidence for Evolution. Just stop. It's time to accept that it's far and simply the better idea when compared to creationism.
Now. That doesn't mean creationism is not real. If there is a higher power, it created something. I just believe the evolution(s)science has shown significant evidence of still occured. Maybe the "God" simply set things in motion.
My issue with the big bang theory is simple. Something creating from absolute nothing. Just never found out how that was possible. I have read tons of articles, read books on the theory, and just come to the same conclussion. The Universe is expanding, it was once smaller, but no one can answer how the original process occured. Yes I know of the bang itself and the negative, positive blah blah blah. I want the simple answer. How was it possible to have that level of energy create from absolute nothingness? It's just not possible. So SOMETHING had to start the process.
So I am right in the middle. I respect science, I think it is spot on in a lot of areas. I also respect the idea of something greater than us. I just choose not to put a face on said entity, nor define it's power. I can't, because I am not intelligent enough too(and neither are you).
Posted on 9/21/17 at 6:12 pm to ShortyRob
I worship at the altar of Logic and Reason. Logic/Reason was here before I was born, it will be here after I die. The Universe operates within the confines of Logic/Reason. It is thru Logic/Reason that Man has advanced and demonstrated some control over the Universe. Logic/Reason guides me, I follow Logic/Reason to the best of my ability. I trust it.
I might not understand an all knowing, immortal, all powerful God, but I can grasp Logic/Reason.
I might not understand an all knowing, immortal, all powerful God, but I can grasp Logic/Reason.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:45 pm to ShortyRob
quote:What's interesting about this rant about pointing out the "fundamental flaw" of the God debates is that you yourself can't even clearly state what the problem is
The flaw is simple. The conversation takes place where the word "God" is never defined and the arguments vacillate between arguments that might be over the question "Is there a God of the Bible" to being over "Is there some all powerful force that created the universe" to "could there have been supremely advanced beings that created the universe?
The problem is, often, you see counter arguments that apply to ONE of the above being used to apply to a different element of the above. IE, the "eyeball" argument used by people as support for the God of the Bible when all it really supports(if anything) is the idea of SOME creator who may or may not be supernatural. And frick, even supernatural is problematic here. What if a supremely advanced race from ANOTHER universe is in the universe creating business. They would exist OUTSIDE our "nature" so, they'd be "supernatural". LOL
And BOTH the theists and the atheists have this problem. Basically, the core discussion takes place as if it was still 500AD.
You see theists using "evidence" that really just supports the idea that there had to be some "designer" but that really is only evidence of about 100 possible designers even if accepted as evidence at all.
On the other side, you get atheists who travel from the reasonable, "the God of the Bible is a highly suspect concept" to the absurd "we can absolutely know that there is no creative force responsible for our universe at all.
Then, we call people who recognize that we can't possibly fathom what supremely advanced beings might be capable "agnostics" but that term loses all meaning if we are suddenly expanding "God" to mean "anything other than completely random shite happening".
OK. Soap box complete.
Try again...
Posted on 9/22/17 at 12:12 am to ShortyRob
The fundamental flaw is that most of the time the atheists will start mocking the Christians instead of at least have some kind of conversation. That's why people consider atheists to be assholes.
Posted on 9/22/17 at 8:11 am to ShortyRob
quote:
What if a supremely advanced race from ANOTHER universe is in the universe creating business. They would exist OUTSIDE our "nature" so, they'd be "supernatural". LOL
Isnt that what God(if it exist)is essentially anyway. God is by definition an extraterrestrial being from outside this universe.
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