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re: (Not Common Core)-- Why are they teaching math this way?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:23 pm to jrodLSUke
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:23 pm to jrodLSUke
quote:
Typical teacher union mentality right here: Don't write that kid off yet, because we can hold all of them back till he catches up.
You seem confused, because I didn't imply that at all.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:26 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Would you rather your child not understand why 6x4 is 24, and instead just memorize it? How will that serve as a good base when your child needs to solve 354x286? Some of the complaints here are just asinine.
Which technique do you see applicable to solving 354*286? Double Facts? Number line? Serious question.
And when you type 6*4 is 24 - did you use a number line, double fact or did you just memorize it? Do you pull out the number line every time you add single digit numbers?
Why are memorizing certain 'facts' (ie 5,10s, and doubles) acceptable but anything else not constructive?
Again, not trying to be argumentative - just curious.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:27 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Directions: use a doubles fact or a doubles plus one fact to help you solve the answer.
This is a pretty poor method of thinking, in my opinion. It's impractical and doesn't serve much real-world value.
quote:
Find the addends and subtrahend.
Ok, there are some goofy words that most aren't familiar with. They could put "missing number," or, heck, "x," but I don't see a problem with teaching proper terminology. And algebra is useful even down at that age. I remember when I first started algebra, the teacher wrote a common example and said "it's just like these problems that you've always done, except the blank is replaced by 'x'," so I don't believe the concept of teaching algebra that early is particularly new, either. It's probably the most abstract and toughest, but peppering if in lightly and early I agree with.
quote:
Draw a number line to help you find the answer
Contrary to the Algebra above that some kids will struggle with, the number line questions are a "gimme." They're so easy that they're annoying. For the kids struggling, it's a good way to teach that math is just counting. I think it's age-appropriate. As much as I want to believe that math is intuitive, sometimes intuition must be taught. This isn't a bad way of doing that. But if I were a smart kid, I would hate it.
quote:
Directions: Use grouping to solve. Show your work.
I have no idea what this means and am not familiar with the concept. I would need to read more into it to see what it means and whether or not it's useful.
At worst, I think 2/4 methods are useful.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:29 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
It is also interesting that his sight words and spelling words are a max of 5 letters currently, and subtrahend is "a doubles fact" longer.
Is there supposed to be a point to this statement besides the joke? Or is every word your kid uses besides subtrahend 5 letters or less?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:30 pm to Layabout
quote:
When you do it with small numbers as examples it seems unnecessarily complicated but it does work. Many of us have been doing it this way for years without ever having been formally instructed in it.
Exactly. But in real life, 90% of math is the small numbers that kids need to memorize to function. They need to memorize more than double facts, 5, 10s etc...
I have no problem with the introduction of the critical thinking pieces earlier than historical (basic pre-algebra concepts), but it needs to be balanced.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:32 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
Use grouping to solve
I read this as Use groping to solve.. But that may just be because I live in Louisiana where teachers may make these directions more common.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:33 pm to igoringa
quote:
. But in real life, 90% of math is the small numbers that kids need to memorize to function.
Why on earth would you rather have math "memorized" as opposed to being able to actually apply it?
You have to understand how to apply the operations in order to do more complex math. Memorization isn't going to give you that.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:34 pm to LNCHBOX
Memorization is definitely a part of math. It just is
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:35 pm to igoringa
quote:
Do you pull out the number line every time you add single digit numbers?
If you're familiar with calculus, this argument should make sense. If you are not, I'll try to find another.
When asked to find the derivative of x^2, do you always pull out the limit as x-->a of x^2/x-a? The answer is probably still "no" much like in your scenario. But if you aren't familiar with how derivatives are calculated, you'll run into trouble when you get to more complex ones where the simple rule cannot be applied. A fundamental understanding of the simple aids in understanding the more advanced. Some kids learn that the number line can be replaced by their fingers. Some realize they can picture the number line in their head. Some then learn what addition and subtraction mean and can then go on go do it without any reliance on method because the concept is ingrained and simple to the point that it becomes automatic. But it really is all based on a number line.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:36 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
I have no idea what this means and am not familiar with the concept.
Depends on the teacher - some teachers say grouping as 'regrouping' in subtraction which would involve more of a traditional method of subtracting at the '1' spot, then the '10' spot.
Grouping in adding tends to be making groups of 10 with individual pieces (large blocks vs small blocks) and degrouping in subtraction where we break the 10 spot down into single pieces to aggregate with the 1 spot and subtract that location.
So depends on what the teacher or material meant by grouping.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:37 pm to jimbeam
quote:
Memorization is definitely a part of math. It just is
Not in my opinion. You have to understand why 2+2=4, not just memorize it.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:40 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Why on earth would you rather have math "memorized" as opposed to being able to actually apply it?
You misunderstood me. You need both, but 90% of what we do is memorization and needs to be. When you typed 6*4 = 24, did you do a number line or did you just know it? In the real world, route memorization of small transactions is essential in functioning.
quote:
You have to understand how to apply the operations in order to do more complex math. Memorization isn't going to give you that.
Never said otherwise. Hence we have pre-algebra, algebra etc... to introduce those concepts in the 5th, 6th grade etc... Move some of that forward - fine... but basic transactions need to be memorized to function.
And to ask you further, are you ok that kids are asked to memorize 'facts'? (ie double facts, 5's, 10's?). Why is 5+5 worth memorizing, but 5+3 isn't?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:42 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Not in my opinion. You have to understand why 2+2=4, not just memorize it.
? I am confused. This is a 'double fact' that kids are told to memorize.
Are you saying you are against this approach now?
Or did you just pick an example that happened to prove our point? Or are you saying we are still going to far by having any 'facts' memorized?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:43 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Is there supposed to be a point to this statement besides the joke? Or is every word your kid uses besides subtrahend 5 letters or less?
The point is the word was not taught as a vocabulary word. The meaning was not taught in class. He is not expected to read words for his grade level greater than 5 letters currently. So if you teach kid "6 minus 4 is 2" or "take 4 away from 6 and you have 2" or "what number do you take from 4 to get 2?" why put subtrahend on the test?
And although I understand those saying it never hurts to teach proper terminology, what is improper about number, value, digit, integer, whole number, etc?
When will you ever need to solve for subtrahend outside of the first 3 grade levels? You will solve for one of the above terms even if the process calls for subtraction.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:43 pm to igoringa
quote:
And to ask you further, are you ok that kids are asked to memorize 'facts'? (ie double facts, 5's, 10's?). Why is 5+5 worth memorizing, but 5+3 isn't?
I don't think it is memorized. I wouldn't know, I'm not being taught it. And even if it isn't, it gives a base to figure out more complex operations. Of course 5+3 isn't complex to an adult. But adults aren't being taught this, now are they?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:44 pm to Bleeding purple
I knew those answers right away. Great start to my Monday.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:44 pm to jimbeam
This style of learning is the basis for almost everyone one of my introductory and subsequent electrical engineering classes.
You don't just go in memorizing things as you go.
This type of theory/terminology is a necessary base.
Of course as you understand the theory and terminology more, you are able to memorize, but being able to know where that memorized information comes from is important.
You don't just go in memorizing things as you go.
This type of theory/terminology is a necessary base.
Of course as you understand the theory and terminology more, you are able to memorize, but being able to know where that memorized information comes from is important.
This post was edited on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:44 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
The point is the word was not taught as a vocabulary word. The meaning was not taught in class. He is not expected to read words for his grade level greater than 5 letters currently. So if you teach kid "6 minus 4 is 2" or "take 4 away from 6 and you have 2" or "what number do you take from 4 to get 2?" why put subtrahend on the test?
I had lots of words on tests that weren't also vocab words for me. Strange.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:45 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
When asked to find.... is all based on a number line.
Fine but if he knows the answer to the math problem why would you deduct for not drawing little humps on a line?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm to jimbeam
quote:
Memorization is definitely a part of math. It just is
Memorization will come either way with practice. Teaching memorization first is a crutch a kid with poor math skills will rely on and they'll be worse off in the long run.
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