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re: (Not Common Core)-- Why are they teaching math this way?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm to junkfunky
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm to junkfunky
quote:
Memorization will come either way with practice. Teaching memorization first is a crutch a kid with poor math skills will rely on and they'll be worse off in the long run.
Well said.
0
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Fine but if he knows the answer to the math problem why would you deduct for not drawing little humps on a line?
Because showing your work is important to demonstrating that you understand the material.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:46 pm to igoringa
quote:
Depends on the teacher - some teachers say grouping as 'regrouping' in subtraction which would involve more of a traditional method of subtracting at the '1' spot, then the '10' spot.
I don't believe this ever ceases to be applicable. It's a goofy name, but we learn all kinds of crazy concepts in advanced maths. Why not name the concepts taught in the simple math?
quote:
Grouping in adding tends to be making groups of 10 with individual pieces (large blocks vs small blocks) and degrouping in subtraction where we break the 10 spot down into single pieces to aggregate with the 1 spot and subtract that location.
I find this method to be kind of like the number line but less intuitive. I thought of it kind of like a "crutch." "Yeah, sure, I could do it that way. But can't I just do what it says instead?" I couldn't understand then that it's not intuitive to all people. I get the concept now that some need more instruction than others. I think it's not necessarily a bad method, but I do view it as kind of a "crutch on the way to understanding." If kids are able to find their own, correct method of performing math operations, ability to regurgitate mundane processes that aren't necessary shouldn't be necessary. But, then again, you have to grade across the board and that is difficult when there is such an array of ability and understanding in the room, and one way of showing that you're able to perform the operation is to make the basic method make sense. So I guess it isn't terrible, just another non-integral concept that aids in understanding.
Put another way, all kids who fully understand the concept of subtraction will understand grouping. Not all kids who understand grouping will fully understand how to perform subtractions.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:47 pm to LNCHBOX
Kids used to be taught why 2 + 2 = 4. That was instilled in kindergarten/ 1st grade. It's not like the current crop of teachers have revolutionized everything.
But to completely nix memorization in favor of over analysis (bc that's basically what the new method is) - is counterproductive in my opinion. Common core is what education majors used to have to take as a course. Someone along the way decided that ALL kids should learn that way and only that way. The old way was never broken to begin with.
But to completely nix memorization in favor of over analysis (bc that's basically what the new method is) - is counterproductive in my opinion. Common core is what education majors used to have to take as a course. Someone along the way decided that ALL kids should learn that way and only that way. The old way was never broken to begin with.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:47 pm to Hopeful Doc
quote:
A fundamental understanding of the simple aids in understanding the more advanced.
Completely agree, which is why I am fine with introduction of these concepts earlier than traditional means, but not as the sole device to learn this must know by heart math facts.
quote:
Some kids learn that the number line can be replaced by their fingers. Some realize they can picture the number line in their head. Some then learn what addition and subtraction mean and can then go on go do it without any reliance on method because the concept is ingrained and simple to the point that it becomes automatic.
And to function in society, they all have to get to the automatic/memorized stage for most of the math they will ever do. If you want to introduce a number line to show 4+3 = 7 simply to provide basis for more complicated calculations, feel free, but in the mean time the kid needs to be able to flat out memorize the answer is 7 to function. That is my problem, supplement vs replacement. I am all for supplement.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:48 pm to LSUJuice
quote:
Seems like it's better than teaching just rote tables/memorization.
You don't start building a house before you lay a foundation just because you don't understand the purpose of a foundation
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:49 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I do have an answer. Teach them 7+4=11 until they get it. I have no problems with offering them different tools to get there, but at the end of the day, they have to be able to answer the question, "What do you get if you add 7 and 4?"
It can be, "Oh, I know that 11 minus 4 = 7, so 7+4=11" - that's perfectly fine. But at the end of the day, single digit addition and multiplication, by rote, is the most efficient and effective path to doing more complicated mathematical functions.
I mean, we developed the atomic bomb and went to the moon with people educated like that - since we stopped doing that and started pussyfooting around in the classroom, promoting everybody, letting 1 + 1 = 3 if the child thinks that's the right answer - well, we just haven't achieved as much, as a nation, now have we?
Holy Crap
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:50 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Because showing your work is important to demonstrating that you understand the material.
Or simply answering 100% of the questions correct.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:51 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Or simply answering 100% of the questions correct.
Who's to say your kid didn't cheat? Showing your work is part of pretty much any math test, are you seriously arguing this?
This post was edited on 2/9/15 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:52 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Fine but if he knows the answer to the math problem why would you deduct for not drawing little humps on a line?
Simply because it's testing the understanding of the application and not the ability to apply. It's a pain in the arse for smart kids. From at least 2nd grade on, I would argue with teachers about whether showing work was necessary. Usually they saw that I grasped the concept and quit forcing me to do it. I was wildly annoyed when I had to do it, but it was in the directions. And learning to read and follow directions is also something that isn't universally understood, oddly enough.
School in the early years is a drag for a smart kid without gifted classes or advanced placement options. Even with them, the basic stuff you still have to do sucks. Sounds like it's just an annoying time that will eventually end.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:52 pm to taylork37
How much math outside of teachers and engineers do people actually use on a daily basis past the 8th grade level? I received a minor in math and my major required I take all the engineering level math courses but in 14 years since I left LSU I have not had one project require that I use anything outside of most basic math. So outside of anything I was forced to memorized I don't really recall anything.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:52 pm to junkfunky
quote:
I've found that there is a correlation between a person's hatred of common core and their lack of math skills.
This.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:52 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
I mean, we developed the atomic bomb and went to the moon with people educated like that - since we stopped doing that and started pussyfooting around in the classroom, promoting everybody, letting 1 + 1 = 3 if the child thinks that's the right answer - well, we just haven't achieved as much, as a nation, now have we?
Thanks Obama.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:53 pm to junkfunky
The issue isn't necessarily with the CCSS, it's with the implementation. There are many students currently in our schools who were taught basic math calculations in the same way that we who are out of school were. For them, we are changing horses midstream. Imagine learning multiplication tables and other math skills through memorization (as we learned), and then have this jibberish thrown at you in the sixth grade and be given no choice but to start using it.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:53 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
I don't think it is memorized.
You are completely wrong. They are taught to memorize it and then use it as a technique. Notice it was given as a technique in the first question. Not number line, or grouping, or sticks or tallies.....
quote:
I wouldn't know, I'm not being taught it.
That explains your commentary.
quote:
And even if it isn't, it gives a base to figure out more complex operations.
So you are fine memorizing doubles, 5's, 10's, doubles -1... what else is good memorization and that is bad memorization to you?
quote:
Of course 5+3 isn't complex to an adult. But adults aren't being taught this, now are they?
No, and amazingly we all know it is 8 without having to pull out a number line.
And you are missing a few questions - remind me again how these help with your question of 354x286? Since the ability to do these more complex calcs seems to be your basis, which of these techniques we discussed are building the skillset to answer 354*286?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:55 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Or simply answering 100% of the questions correct.
I'm still having difficulty wrapping my head around how your second grader is doing double digit multiplication in his head, but isn't expected to read words of 5 letters or greater.
Got to be honest...mine is doing the exact opposite. They have not yet reached basic multiplication in math class, but he can certainly read the word multiplication.
Did you write that incorrectly earlier?
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:55 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Who's to say your kid didn't cheat? Showing your work is part of pretty much any math test, are you seriously arguing this?
Wait, so we should design math to ensure kids don't cheat.
Further, you are saying if given the question 4+3=__, if you didn't show your work, then you shouldn't get credit?
This is exactly why people think the pendulum has swung too far.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:56 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
The point is the word was not taught as a vocabulary word. The meaning was not taught in class.
His teacher either made a mistake, has faults, is generally bad, or he didn't listen. In any of those instances, teach him the meaning. But I agree, it's probably one of the first three out of those four choices, and that's hard to deal with- it's an unreal expectation and one of the major reasons the education system sucks. The kids don't know what it means. Most parents don't know what it means. And the teacher doesn't teach the meaning of it because she's never done it before and wasn't told to do so. The kids with parents who explain it are well off. The kids who don't have parents who do homework with them are either smart enough to figure out the most algebra on their own or screwed.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:58 pm to igoringa
quote:
You are completely wrong. They are taught to memorize it and then use it as a technique. Notice it was given as a technique in the first question. Not number line, or grouping, or sticks or tallies.....
So you knwo for 100% fact that 5+5=10 wasn't taught before hand? Spiffy.
quote:
That explains your commentary.
I'd love to know how you connect those dots. I was taught the old way, and am an engineer. So you;d think if I was uninformed I'd lean against the new way of teaching stuff. quote:
So you are fine memorizing doubles
I don't think it's memoizing. I'm assuming the kid learns why 5+5=10 the same way he will learn why 5+3=8. You call it memorizing, I call it application.
quote:
No, and amazingly we all know it is 8 without having to pull out a number line.
Congrats, the child will get there too.
quote:
And you are missing a few questions - remind me again how these help with your question of 354x286?
I never said they would. Why would they? The child is learning the basis of why the simple things are what they are so they can later do more complex things.
quote:
which of these techniques we discussed are building the skillset to answer 354*286?
None. Thank goodness I never claimed they would.
Posted on 2/9/15 at 12:59 pm to igoringa
quote:
Wait, so we should design math to ensure kids don't cheat.
You aren't "designing" math.
What do you even mean by that? quote:
urther, you are saying if given the question 4+3=__, if you didn't show your work, then you shouldn't get credit?
Not if your test requires it of you.
quote:
This is exactly why people think the pendulum has swung too far.
Yea following directions is dumb.
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