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Message
re: Satanic Temple puts up display at Michigan Capital
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:37 am to Pettifogger
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:37 am to Pettifogger
quote:
atheism is certainly "religion-like" for a lot of folks.
quote:
It's a mindset elevated to a religion for some.
i'm sure it is to the militant ones.
let us all know when the next atheist comes to your doorstep to tell you the good news about believing in not believing
This post was edited on 12/22/14 at 10:38 am
1
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:37 am to monsterballads
quote:Because atheists tend to argue as though they're stating fact, and frequently say that they don't believe because there is no evidence to make them believe.
why is it that christians try to put non-believers on the same level as christianity?
Christians reply and say that there is no evidence that there isn't a God, and that Atheists are basing their beliefs on "faith" just as much as Christians are.
It's an odd debate tack, and one that I don't understand.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:37 am to FooManChoo
Wrong.
Faith is based on unverifiable beliefs.
Faith is based on unverifiable beliefs.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:38 am to monsterballads
quote:
let us all know when the next atheist comes to your doorstep to tell you the good news about believing in not believing
FWIW I've probably had about 4 people in 30 years do that for any faith. Let's not act like it's a common benchmark to use.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:39 am to FT
quote:
Christians reply and say that there is no evidence that there isn't a God
the ones making the claim have the responsibility to verify it, not the ones denying it.
the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:39 am to Porkchop Express
quote:This isn't quite true. Some beliefs are verifiable. For instance, if someone plays a shell game, they may think that the ball is under the third shell. Maybe they watched carefully and are reasonably sure that the ball is under that shell. This person would be said to believe the ball is there, and that belief is subject to verification by picking up that shell.
A fact is verifiable. (Water is wet is a fact)
A belief is unverifiable. (The Patriots will win next week is a belief)
That doesn't mean the person is definitely right. The person may even admit that he or she isn't sure it's there, but may still have a good reason to believe it.
Faith is a belief without evidence. Faith is often not subject to verification.
It's possible to believe a fact. If I have only one shell, and I put a ball under it, then I would be justified in believing the ball is under the shell. Even though it's a fact, it's also a belief--just a very well justified belief.
"Knowledge" refers to a justified, true belief.
So there's facts, there's beliefs, there's knowledge, and there's faith. They're all distinct things.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:41 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage."
Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!
"Show me", you say, and I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle - but no dragon
"Where's the dragon", you ask.
"Oh, she's right here", I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon".
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints. "Good idea", I say, "but this dragon floats in the air". Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire. "Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless", I say. You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible. "Good idea, except she's an incorporeal (bodiless) dragon and the paint won't stick!"
And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.
Now what is the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? You're inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:41 am to Pettifogger
quote:I'll agree that it's "a lot". I don't think it's a majority.
atheism is certainly "religion-like" for a lot of folks.
I know you're not saying it is, just thought I'd chime in FWIW.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:42 am to monsterballads
quote:I realize that. I was explaining why Christians attempt to put Atheists in the "religion" category, not advocating the view myself.
the ones making the claim have the responsibility to verify it, not the ones denying it.
the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:42 am to monsterballads
quote:
the ones making the claim have the responsibility to verify it, not the ones denying it.
the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim.
Well, they know they have to win the debate within the realm of semantics. They do not want to have to delve into the empirical.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:43 am to Hog on the Hill
Not to be ridiculous, but I don't know that they all have to be distinct.
A belief can be shown to be a fact. Faith can be an aspirational belief that can also be rendered factual.
A belief can be shown to be a fact. Faith can be an aspirational belief that can also be rendered factual.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:44 am to Superior Pariah
People really shouldn't give a shite about this. It's just some random persob excercising out harmless free speech and if there's attention whoring going on, then all the more reason to not give a shite about this.
Speaking as an agnostic diest by the way.
Speaking as an agnostic diest by the way.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:44 am to Hog on the Hill
You believe the ball wad under shell three.
The fact is it was under shell two.
It is not hard a concept to grasp I believe.
The fact is it was under shell two.
It is not hard a concept to grasp I believe.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:45 am to Pettifogger
quote:Sorry, I didn't mean to say that they were mutually exclusive. I meant they were distinct concepts. I was directing some of those comments to no one in particular--just to the forum in general.
Not to be ridiculous, but I don't know that they all have to be distinct.
A belief can be shown to be a fact. Faith can be an aspirational belief that can also be rendered factual.
I agree with what you said in this post.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:47 am to monsterballads
quote:I'd say "yes" in most cases, but this is pretty unique since the only way to really verify it is to die. Since the potential consequences of death without faith is so severe, it's really a message that needs to be heard prior to death.
the one making the claim has the responsibility to verify it, do they not?
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:47 am to Porkchop Express
quote:
A belief is unverifiable. (The Patriots will win next week is a belief)
It is verifiable...you just have to watch the game next week.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:47 am to Sentrius
quote:Agreed
People really shouldn't give a shite about this. It's just some random persob excercising out harmless free speech and if there's attention whoring going on, then all the more reason to not give a shite about this.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:47 am to monsterballads
quote:Again, you are conflating agnosticism with atheism.
atheism is not a religion nor is it a belief
Let's test the premise with a simple yes, no, or IDK question.
Is there a God?
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:49 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Of course. How else could he hate figs?
Is there a God?
ETA: Westboro is just the worst.
This post was edited on 12/22/14 at 10:52 am
Posted on 12/22/14 at 10:49 am to NC_Tigah
quote:Agnosticism and atheism are indeed distinct, but they are not mutually exclusive.
Again, you are conflating agnosticism with atheism.
Let's test the premise with a simple yes, no, or IDK question.
Is there a God?
To answer your question, I don't know if there's a god, and I think that it's essentially unknowable, but since I have no evidence of a god's existence, I don't believe in a god. So I'm an agnostic atheist.
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