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re: The "US can't compete because athletes choose other sports" Argument
Posted on 12/15/14 at 1:51 am to mynamebowl
Posted on 12/15/14 at 1:51 am to mynamebowl
quote:
It's not hypocritical at all. US Soccer and MLS are not the same thing.
US Soccer needs the MLS to be successful. Plus, they are both under the USSF tree.
quote:
If we want MLS to grow into the type of league that can be the main supplier of talent to the national team. And I'm not talking about Chris Wondolowski and Brad Davis here. I'm talking about real players who can win real things, like tournaments. These things maybe need to be said publicly by someone as important as Jurgen. That's how things get done.
Ummm... what?
Go back and look at Jurgen's interactions with MLS. On what planet does any of that need to be said publicly? If anything it has alienated the two most visible factors in this sport's domestic growth.
This post was edited on 12/15/14 at 1:58 am
Posted on 12/15/14 at 6:49 am to SabiDojo
quote:
It's a silly argument. The US players are as fast and agile as any other soccer player in the world. It's the touch and vision that sets them apart.
While true, we all saw what a difference the elite speed Charlie Davies made for us before his injury.
Now imagine Beckam tearing things up on the wing? Its not that we don't have good athletes on the team now, its that there aren't enough elite athletes that have soccer first. Guys who are so fast, so quick, and so good at soccer that they take over games.
We have no one like Sterling in our player pool. Someone like that makes the opposition have to plan around them. They can't keep playing the high line or he'll beat them behind.
Hell - Yedlin might be the closest we have to this now (though as a defender), and he's been brought in by a higher English club, despite his other liabilities. There was no route through Holland or Fulham - though he'll probably be loaned for experience.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 7:46 am to Tigerstark
So you think Spain has elite, or even good, athletes?
Posted on 12/15/14 at 7:48 am to Tigerstark
BTW Beaseley was that quick in his prime. He had truly elite speed. He was never a great soccer player though.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 8:15 am to jackwoods4
quote:
The "US can't compete because athletes choose other sports" Argument
Frequently pops up in threads on the OT. Usually followed by "soccer is ghey" and a USMNT Dream XI complete with athletes like Marshawn Lynch and Lebron James.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 9:01 am to SabiDojo
quote:
It's a silly argument. The US players are as fast and agile as any other soccer player in the world. It's the touch and vision that sets them apart.
One element difficult to replicate in the U.S. is the hunger kids grow up with in other countries. In some countries, soccer represents a payday and a way out of poverty. In others, soccer has a long history and kids have a desire to mark their place in it. We have to remember the U.S. only started going to World Cups again about 25 years ago.
In the U.S., players at the youth club level have to have some resources to travel and compete on weekends. They generally aren't poor kids off the streets. There are club dues, jersey fees, hotels, gas and food, etc. There aren't professional clubs taking poor talented kids in and paying for them to develop and compete. This limits exposure at younger ages to kids of a certain economic status. It's hard to take middle class kids and impose the same type of hunger to develop that kids in other situations have.
Clint Dempsey tells the story of his family committing all of their resources to placing him on a club where he could get access to better competition. He represents that kind of hunger and desire we want in the U.S. player. But that's just one story. We need to find a way to impose a desire in young kids and give them the resources they need to succeed. It's a great challenge.
One goal JK had as technical director was to introduce soccer to youth in larger cities (greater exposure). Another was to identify kids at a younger age and find better ways to develop them. I hope we can continue to improve in those areas.
And just so this post isn't misinterpreted, I'm not saying that kids from a middle to high socioeconomic background can't succeed at the highest level. I'm just saying we need to find ways to put those kids in environments where they are instilled with a greater hunger to develop technically and mentally into world class players. Also, we need greater exposure to the game and a better ability to identify kids at younger ages to put them into situations to succeed.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 10:37 am to thesoccerfanjax
You made about 6 different leaps from what I said to what you said.
We're at least a generation - if we are lucky, if not a lot more, from being to produce the sheer number of technical players their system is based upon.
Our current system was likely at its best with just one guy with elite speed. Athleticism i not an area we are lacking in, but a bit more elite level guys (rather than just as athletic as the next team type guys) would really help our team given our current technical abilities.
That is not the same thing as me saying "imagine if Lebron played soccer". Its me saying, if just a few more elite athleticism guys made soccer their number 1 sport, we may have one or two more guys with elite athleticism make that National Team level. Its a numbers game - you need a ton of kids playing and focusing from an early age. soccer is growing, but its not there yet.
We're at least a generation - if we are lucky, if not a lot more, from being to produce the sheer number of technical players their system is based upon.
Our current system was likely at its best with just one guy with elite speed. Athleticism i not an area we are lacking in, but a bit more elite level guys (rather than just as athletic as the next team type guys) would really help our team given our current technical abilities.
That is not the same thing as me saying "imagine if Lebron played soccer". Its me saying, if just a few more elite athleticism guys made soccer their number 1 sport, we may have one or two more guys with elite athleticism make that National Team level. Its a numbers game - you need a ton of kids playing and focusing from an early age. soccer is growing, but its not there yet.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:20 am to Tigerstark
But its not a numbers game. Not really. We have more kids playing and focusing on the sport from a going age than most countries. Its what they're focusing on that's the problem. And that is changing.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:22 am to Tigerstark
quote:
We have no one like Sterling in our player pool. Someone like that makes the opposition have to plan around them. They can't keep playing the high line or he'll beat them behind.
You know why Sterling is so good? Because he has fantastic technique, in addition to that speed.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:24 am to jackwoods4
quote:
BrittMcHenry: Odell Beckham Jr. turned down playing for the US national soccer team for football. Example of why we'll never have European caliber soccer
This logic is asinine. Jozy could have been a great football/basketball player...who knows.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:26 am to cwil177
quote:
ou know why Sterling is so good? Because he has fantastic technique, in addition to that speed
Right, because he started focusing on soccer at a very young age. He didn't play football, baseball, basketball and soccer and spend only 3 months a year playing soccer, with one practice a week and one or two games a week. And then when he got a bit older, after it was too late, start spending more time practicing.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:33 am to Tigerstark
Plenty of young people in this country do that too. I don't know why you're ignoring this fact. However, Sterling is a bit of an exception because England's youth program has failed more often than not these days. They have a huge problem in that English players just aren't all that good anymore due to focusing on the wrong things from a going age. Kinda like the same problem we have here in the US.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:37 am to Tigerstark
Ok, so I'll give you that... maybe those players would be marginally better if they focused on soccer instead of playing other sports simultaneously.
BUT- here in the US we don't have the resources (yet) to develop elite talent. Until we do, our players have a ceiling that is lower than that of other countries, even if they devote themselves only to soccer from day one (we already have many kids who do that. Let's not forget how large of a population we have).
BUT- here in the US we don't have the resources (yet) to develop elite talent. Until we do, our players have a ceiling that is lower than that of other countries, even if they devote themselves only to soccer from day one (we already have many kids who do that. Let's not forget how large of a population we have).
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:39 am to thesoccerfanjax
I don't think we have plenty of 5, 6 and 7 year olds that focus on soccer year round. We have some, but not the perecentage or numbers that other countries have.
I could easily be wrong on that and I don't even know where to get numbers on it, but sorry, I'm just not going to take your word for it. I don't know a single friend, co worker etc. with a boy about that age that plays soccer that doesn't also play other sports, or even do much more than kick the ball around every once in awhile when its not in season.
The few coaches I know don't seem to see kids do that until 10 at the earliest.
Also, to my point about elite players, the guys that are clearly elite athletes even from a young age, play a lot of different sports and don't settle into one until its too for soccer in a lot of cases.
You're talking about how to develop an entire generation of players. I'm talking about how just one or two more elite athleticism players make a different to our current squad. Its not the same argument but you keep trying to push mine into it.
I could easily be wrong on that and I don't even know where to get numbers on it, but sorry, I'm just not going to take your word for it. I don't know a single friend, co worker etc. with a boy about that age that plays soccer that doesn't also play other sports, or even do much more than kick the ball around every once in awhile when its not in season.
The few coaches I know don't seem to see kids do that until 10 at the earliest.
Also, to my point about elite players, the guys that are clearly elite athletes even from a young age, play a lot of different sports and don't settle into one until its too for soccer in a lot of cases.
You're talking about how to develop an entire generation of players. I'm talking about how just one or two more elite athleticism players make a different to our current squad. Its not the same argument but you keep trying to push mine into it.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:41 am to Broski
quote:
the two most visible factors in this sport's domestic growth
There is exactly one visible factor right now that is pushing the sport of soccer in the US and it's not MLS. It's the one Jurgen is in charge of.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:46 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Collinsworth said
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:47 am to mynamebowl
quote:
There is exactly one visible factor right now that is pushing the sport of soccer in the US and it's not MLS. It's the one Jurgen is in charge of.
I'm going to disagree with you. I'm in minority, but I think when we look back at US soccer in 50 years I think the the USMNT and the MLS will have similar growth patterns (in terms of caliber of players and fans) and the MLS will be given much more credit than it is now. I just don't see how having an exciting national league could do anything, but support the growth of the USMNT, that is when we get the youth development shite down.
This post was edited on 12/15/14 at 11:48 am
Posted on 12/15/14 at 11:52 am to PeepleHeppinBidness
My personal observation is that US soccer isn't concerned with the training of kids till maybe 12 years old.
Even the MLS development academies are set up this way currently. They look at development as a funnel with a large amount of players in one end and a few coming out the other. They often have difficulty staffing programs with good coaches at U12+ and there is a serious lack of quality coaches for kids below that age. The steps are as below:
1) get as many kids as possible into the program at a young/rec age
2) the quality of coaching is mostly parent coached and is used to just get them exposure to the game until age 10 to 12
3) Take the best of the kids left in the sport at that age and start coaching them up.
The problem isn't the funnel style many in - few out system. Its that what happens between age 4 and 12 is hugely variable and not at all standardized. This is also the most important age for development. Most European clubs bring in Elite kids in their area around 9, global talent is brought in by age 12.
They European clubs are grading kids on scales like these below. The American clubs are using the best of whoever is left in the game at age 12 approach.
• TIPS (Ajax): Talent, Intelligence, Personality, Speed
• TABS (L’vpool):Technical,Attitude,Balance,Speed
• SUPS : Speed,Understanding,Personality,Skill
• PAS :Pace,Attitude,Skill
We need to spend more time on the activities and coaching of younger kids and we need to keep the best athletes in soccer.
Yes, having the best athletes matters.
You can't coach speed and size. The US knows this as well and the US Youth Soccer's internal grading instructs them to find the tallest and biggest prospects with ages closest to the age qualification dates of various teams.
Having the right coaching earlier will also help us keep the best athletes in the system.
Even the MLS development academies are set up this way currently. They look at development as a funnel with a large amount of players in one end and a few coming out the other. They often have difficulty staffing programs with good coaches at U12+ and there is a serious lack of quality coaches for kids below that age. The steps are as below:
1) get as many kids as possible into the program at a young/rec age
2) the quality of coaching is mostly parent coached and is used to just get them exposure to the game until age 10 to 12
3) Take the best of the kids left in the sport at that age and start coaching them up.
The problem isn't the funnel style many in - few out system. Its that what happens between age 4 and 12 is hugely variable and not at all standardized. This is also the most important age for development. Most European clubs bring in Elite kids in their area around 9, global talent is brought in by age 12.
They European clubs are grading kids on scales like these below. The American clubs are using the best of whoever is left in the game at age 12 approach.
• TIPS (Ajax): Talent, Intelligence, Personality, Speed
• TABS (L’vpool):Technical,Attitude,Balance,Speed
• SUPS : Speed,Understanding,Personality,Skill
• PAS :Pace,Attitude,Skill
We need to spend more time on the activities and coaching of younger kids and we need to keep the best athletes in soccer.
Yes, having the best athletes matters.
You can't coach speed and size. The US knows this as well and the US Youth Soccer's internal grading instructs them to find the tallest and biggest prospects with ages closest to the age qualification dates of various teams.
Having the right coaching earlier will also help us keep the best athletes in the system.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 12:14 pm to Maderan
This is still the best single class that our youth system has produced.
Posted on 12/15/14 at 12:20 pm to FunkasaurusReb
quote:
I think when we look back at US soccer in 50 years I think the the USMNT and the MLS will have similar growth patterns (in terms of caliber of players and fans) and the MLS will be given much more credit than it is now. I just don't see how having an exciting national league could do anything, but support the growth of the USMNT, that is when we get the youth development shite down.
All of this is probably right. But I was talking about right now, not 50 years from now. MLS is barely a blip on the radar when it comes to our national sports consciousness. No one gives a shite about it. When the USMNT plays, people watch. MLS needs to catch up, and I think it will.
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