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Message
The ACLU's disappointing stance on the Hobby Lobby decision
Posted on 7/2/14 at 10:08 pm
Posted on 7/2/14 at 10:08 pm
LINK
People are losing sight of what this debacle is really is really about. I respect the the ACLU and they do really good work as they are a very pro freedom organization but they forget the greater civil liberty here and that's private property rights and religious freedom.
The bolded is simply so deceptive and vague. The employees and the gov't are violating the employers religious beliefs by forcing them to cover something they have a religious objection to. That's bad enough and then they say their reproductive care is not their employers business? Uh it clearly is when their boss is paying for it. Don't like it? Pay for it on your own, this decision is not stopping you from doing that and it's hilarious how people are neglecting to mention that. It's all about them.
With regards to ObamaCare and the constiution, in what world do they think that statutory laws can supersede constiutional rights?
quote:
The American Civil Liberties Union, religious organizations, other civil rights and women’s health groups, business leaders, and members of Congress filed friend-of-the-court briefs arguing that the companies’ owners cannot impose their personal religious beliefs on employees to withhold coverage for health services with which they disagree.
"This is a deeply troubling decision. For the first time, the highest court in the country has said that business owners can use their religious beliefs to deny their employees a benefit that they are guaranteed by law," said Louise Melling, deputy legal director of the ACLU. "Religious freedom is a fundamental right, but that freedom does not include the right to impose beliefs on others. In its ruling today, the Court simply got it wrong."
People are losing sight of what this debacle is really is really about. I respect the the ACLU and they do really good work as they are a very pro freedom organization but they forget the greater civil liberty here and that's private property rights and religious freedom.
The bolded is simply so deceptive and vague. The employees and the gov't are violating the employers religious beliefs by forcing them to cover something they have a religious objection to. That's bad enough and then they say their reproductive care is not their employers business? Uh it clearly is when their boss is paying for it. Don't like it? Pay for it on your own, this decision is not stopping you from doing that and it's hilarious how people are neglecting to mention that. It's all about them.
With regards to ObamaCare and the constiution, in what world do they think that statutory laws can supersede constiutional rights?
20
Posted on 7/2/14 at 10:12 pm to Sentrius
It's mind-boggling. No one is forced to work at Hobby Lobby.
Posted on 7/2/14 at 10:19 pm to Sentrius
(no message)
This post was edited on 4/20/21 at 8:41 pm
Posted on 7/2/14 at 10:19 pm to Sentrius
1) No one if forced to work at HL
2) If you DO work at HL, you are not barred from using birth control
End of story. There is no "imposing" of beliefs on the part of the owners.
2) If you DO work at HL, you are not barred from using birth control
End of story. There is no "imposing" of beliefs on the part of the owners.
Posted on 7/2/14 at 11:02 pm to Sentrius
The ACLU has never suppprted an individual's right to own a firearm IIRC.
I have mixed feelings about the organization and their tepid support of the 2nd makes it very hard for me to support them at all.
I have mixed feelings about the organization and their tepid support of the 2nd makes it very hard for me to support them at all.
Posted on 7/2/14 at 11:02 pm to Sentrius
The fact that the argument is about what kind of healthcare companies "must" supply and not about the insanity of government forcing companies to be health insurance suppliers in the first place shows just how far off the tracks this nation is.
Posted on 7/2/14 at 11:26 pm to Sentrius
quote:
People are losing sight of what this debacle is really is really about. I respect the the ACLU and they do really good work as they are a very pro freedom organization but they forget the greater civil liberty here and that's private property rights and religious freedom.
I think you're losing sight of the fact that corporations, creatures of the state that shield their owners from personal liability, are not entitled to "religious freedom." That is reserved for real human beings.
Posted on 7/2/14 at 11:27 pm to Sentrius
quote:
I respect the the ACLU and they do really good work as they are a very pro freedom organization
dafuk?
Posted on 7/2/14 at 11:50 pm to Sentrius
(no message)
This post was edited on 8/31/14 at 10:02 am
Posted on 7/3/14 at 12:26 am to Sentrius
this is one of the most common arguments against the court's decision.
Businesses don't have religious freedom, if they did all kinds of crazy stuff could happen.
Jehova's witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions so they won't cover that
Scientologist don't believe in artificial medicines so they won't cover that.
than once you get into an argument like this they will than go further to talk about crazy religious beliefs that they think could happen with a free exercise of religion.
some people believe taxes are evil you can't not pay taxes
I believe in illegal drugs so I should be able to have them
etc.
they will try and use crazy examples tear down the idea of freedom of worship.
Businesses don't have religious freedom, if they did all kinds of crazy stuff could happen.
Jehova's witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions so they won't cover that
Scientologist don't believe in artificial medicines so they won't cover that.
than once you get into an argument like this they will than go further to talk about crazy religious beliefs that they think could happen with a free exercise of religion.
some people believe taxes are evil you can't not pay taxes
I believe in illegal drugs so I should be able to have them
etc.
they will try and use crazy examples tear down the idea of freedom of worship.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 2:15 am to Sentrius
quote:
in what world do they think that statutory laws can supersede constiutional rights?
in what world do corporations have constitutional rights.
this one apparently because with two recent rulings the supreme court has stupidly granted individuals rights of free speech and religious freedom to big businesses.
I ll hold my breath for the backlash when a Muslim owned corporation instills Shariah law at its facilities, because thats what this ruling now allows
Posted on 7/3/14 at 5:41 am to Sentrius
At its heart, the ACLU is a liberal organization and will act accordingly.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 6:11 am to Sentrius
They are saying that NOT FORCING someone pay for something you want equals imposing their beliefs on you.
That is some bizarro alternative language universe shite right there.
That is some bizarro alternative language universe shite right there.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 6:26 am to Sentrius
My liberal friends are losing their minds about the court "ruling that businesses are people with their own rights to religious freedom and exemption."
The argument that Hobby Lobby still covers all but 4 types of birth control, the covered forms making up 80% of popularly used birth control, me and nothing to them.
The argument that Hobby Lobby still covers all but 4 types of birth control, the covered forms making up 80% of popularly used birth control, me and nothing to them.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 7:53 am to Sentrius
As the liberal machine infringes more and more on civil liberties, it will be entertaining to see how the ACLU navigates moving forward.
They are a shite organization, and they're justification is the proverbial sun shining on a dog's arse every once in awhile.
They are a shite organization, and they're justification is the proverbial sun shining on a dog's arse every once in awhile.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 8:19 am to Sentrius
quote:
Religious freedom is a fundamental right, but that freedom does not include the right to impose beliefs on others. In its ruling today, the Court simply got it wrong
This is a one-sided statement about this exact issue.
One could EASILY argue that HL being forced to provide those 4 contraceptives out of 20 total products in the case would be an infringement on the owner's right to his religious beliefs. The government forcing the owner to cover those items that directly violate his religious belief system is a direct infringement on his constitutional right, seeing as his company pays the premiums for those individuals to have the coverage mandated by the ACA.
They are right in framing it to be about the individual... The problem with their framing is that they don't outline the fact that HL's owner has individual rights too.
In my opinion, and this will sound inflammatory, although it is not meant to be... I believe that an individual's CONSTITUTIONAL right tofreedom of religion trumps the IMPLIED right of the individual to healthcare, which is why there has not been a universal healthcare system in this nation until recently.
I do not believe in a right to healthcare because that implied right paves the way for taxpayers to pick up the bill for others' healthcare. Again, there is a CONSTITUTIONAL right to freedom of religion, not a constitutional right to mooching.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 9:24 am to Sentrius
quote:
The employees and the gov't are violating the employers religious beliefs by forcing them to cover something they have a religious objection to.
That's pure baloney on three counts.
First, the employees work for the CORPORATION, not for the owners. The entire raison d'etre of incorporation under US and Western law is to create a legal entity separate from its owners. The owners can not logically claim a violation of their religious liberties when they, themselves, are not even the target of the legislation.
Second, despite your claim the owners of Hobby Lobby were not being "forced" to do anything. If they don't like the laws governing incorporation then they don't have to incorporate.
Third, under US law employer-provided health insurance is a form of compensation for services rendered. The health insurance coverage, then, is the employees', not the owners', because they've earned it with their labor. You can not validly claim you're being religiously violated by something I do for myself with what belongs to me.
Isn't it fascinating how people such as yourself are eager to defend Hobby Lobby against charges of hypocrisy for investing retirement funds in abortion drug companies, under the premise that the money belongs to the employee, but then so rapidly abandon that rationale when an employee's EARNED healthcare coverage is the subject?
Posted on 7/3/14 at 9:28 am to Sentrius
quote:
With regards to ObamaCare and the constiution, in what world do they think that statutory laws can supersede constiutional rights?
I'm definitely not a lawyer, so I may be mistaken, but wasn't this case decided on statutory law and not constitutional law? The supreme court essentially upheld RFRA, a law that came out of a democrat majority in the house and signed by Bill Clinton.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 9:53 am to Sentrius
The ACLU often gets it right. But they get it wrong sometimes too. Their stance on 2A has always puzzled me.
Posted on 7/3/14 at 12:33 pm to Sentrius
quote:In Obama's world, of course. The ACLU stance was as predictable as it is ideological. They have evolved from a neutral party advocate of civil liberties for all, to a mouthpiece (and creature of) the ideological Left.
...in what world do they think that statutory laws can supersede constitutional rights
This post was edited on 7/3/14 at 12:35 pm
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