Iranian's discover bitcoin - Page 8 - TigerDroppings.com

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LSURussian
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
80689 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

I would require reporting of all transactions made using bitcoins to include the parties involved in the transactions similar to 1099 reporting.



impossible to enforce

That is just not an accurate statement. You may wish it would be impossible to enforce but there are ways to track the exchange of goods even if it takes physical monitoring of the flow of goods.

quote:

If there is demand for bitcoins
How much will that demand diminish when a scandal erupts over fraudulent merchants or buyers who have found a way to break the security codes surrounding bitcoin?






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Unless the private code is stronger than your bank account access codes


it is.

quote:

And as a risk expert, I'd love to see a study that proves this.



There is essentially no benefit to attempting to "crack" bitcoin private keys. it would take millions upon millions of years to do so.

the only type of "theft" that would be possible would be to break into an individuals computer and steal their wallet file, if they don't have it properly secured (i.e. encrypted).



quote:

Criminals knowing there is little recourse to financial gain creates a very big incentive.


it would be a lot of hard work for unproven gains. in other words, if you are going to attack an individual because you think they have a lot of bitcoins, you still don't know if they have it broken up into separate wallets, where the wallets are stored, etc. etc.



This post was edited on 11/30 at 11:57 am


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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Are you saying I'll get a discount on what I buy from Amazon or other merchants if I use bitcoin instead of my credit card? I sure don't get a discount from them when I apply a gift card to my account and that is just like using cash, i.e., not credit card involved.


Maybe in the future. Have you never gotten a cash discount at a local retailer? Give it a shot, it works, especially for small businesses. Tell them you will pay cash if they will give you a better deal. I bat about 50% with this, at small businesses. Sometimes its just sales tax, sometimes its larger.

Amazon is unlikely to provide a discount, since they are so large and likely have to follow Visa/MC merchant rules which forbid charging a higher price for credit cards.

But you can be that you will get stuff cheaper on ebay for bitcoins.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

If it's in the price as buddha said, will I get a discount for using bitcoin when buying from one of my common vendors


you understand markets. you understand how they change.

if a vendor can pass on those savings to make their business more competitive, they will. do you deny this?






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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

if a vendor can pass on those savings to make their business more competitive, they will. do you deny this?


Visa / MC have this in the merchant rules for a reason, to avoid "cash discounts."

Big retailers are stuck following them, smaller ones can fly under the radar.






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C
LSU Fan
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Dec 2007
21471 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

it is.

Give me an example of a bit coin code.

quote:

if you are going to attack an individual because you think they have a lot of bitcoins, you still don't know if they have it broken up into separate wallets, where the wallets are stored, etc. etc.


So you really think users of today are going to be less lazy about storing and creating passcodes in the future? No way. All users today want ease of use and to "hire out" someone to protect them ie a bank or govt.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Give me an example of a bit coin code.


Go read the whitepaper. It's fascinating: LINK (PDF)

Here's a page that just discusses the private key: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key



quote:

All users today want ease of use and to "hire out" someone to protect them ie a bank or govt.


And there are 3rd parties propping up to provide these services.















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C
LSU Fan
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Dec 2007
21471 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Here's a page that just discusses the private key: LINK


Yeah i went searched and found it. Looks like it just like your banking passwords except you can set your own parameters.

quote:

And there are 3rd parties propping up to provide these services.


Yeah saw that too.

as I've said in the past when we've discussed, bitcoins, they have a lot of individual risk with not much established insurance available. World curriencies have backings of force by govts. I see a ton of benefit in using for those that need to be anonymous, but not much benefit for me other than trying to avoid a collapse of our own currency. I think ammo is probably a better alternative at this point.






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el duderino III
Texas Fan
austin
Member since Jul 2011
1517 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

-A move away from taxation to usage fees
-Less reliance on debt to fund government
-Smaller government as a result
seriously. first off, how does a transition from taxes to usage fees inherently reduce government spending, since otherwise you are saying such a transition would result in either massively higher tax rates, or deficits would magically disappear on their own. and you think the left will just completely roll over, and accept there's nothing they can do but shrink gov't, because of bitcoin? people would riot in the streets, the country would be far more likely to move towards communism than free markets. When the country is faced with this unprecedented crisis, why on earth do you just assume out of your own extensive knowledge of similar past situations, that have never occurred? Why are you supremely confident that your message will be more persuasive to people than say,

"The strategy of relaxing regulations on commerce have once again proven to be disastrous for our country. Just as when reckless wall street speculation and gambling and exploitation of working families through the housing market lead to the last crisis, now the more well off have again discovered new ways to beat the system, avoid paying taxes, taking advantage of the rest of our hard working americans and have cause yet another crisis. They have once again proven that deregulation does not lead to economic prosperity, only to increased exploitation of the many, by the few. What we need now, more than ever, is a government strong enough to protect us from the damages of these new tools the super rich have employed against us, and a government strong enough to provide for it's people, who are suffering in these trying times. together, with your support, we can take back this country from those who would see it stripped clean of all it's resources, for their own benefit. together, we can turn this tide, and build a stronger, fairer, and more just society!"

Do you really think that your message of free markets and small government is going to be more persuasive than the populist bull shite above? because that was off the top of my head, I'm sure they would come up with something better.

the fact that you guys are just supremely confident that what you have envisioned will be the actual end result of such a crisis is nothing short of disturbing. You guys are just marchin off to the song of revolution, and you cant even see five feet in front of your faces. You have absolutely no idea what the country's response would be in such a scenario. I honestly dont see much difference between this and the marxists marching off to revolution, absolutely confident that their cause was just, despite having no fricking clue if communism would even work.

I mean I'll readily concede that I dont know as much about the technology, but you should really try to become aware that you really dont understand anywhere near as much of the politics and economics of the situation as you think you do.

because you see there's just regular ignorance, and then there's really impassioned ignorance with a purpose. one of the two is inherently dangerous.


and you can be on the internet in three years to tell me when the ability of isp's to monitor activity is reduced, but i'll go ahead and give you my name, phone number, home address, and social security number if it means you'll promise to come find me and let me know when bitcoin leads to any one of those three things happening.






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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

as I've said in the past when we've discussed, bitcoins, they have a lot of individual risk with not much established insurance available.


bitcoin is also in its infancy.

the basic structure is in place. what we are seeing now is the market is erecting more safeguards and conveniences so that non-tech people will be able to use it.

for instance, you're going to see it soon to where you can have bitcoin on your phone, have your wallet be safe (encrypted) so that even if you lose your phone or get it stolen, you don't have to worry, and you'll be able to conveniently use it to pay individuals or businesses. a lot of the innovation is actually being driven by users in lesser developed markets.

there really isn't much of a need for it in the USA just yet, but it will continue to grow.


think of bitcoins right now as the internet was in 1993.






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Poodlebrain
LSU Fan
Way Right of Rex
Member since Jan 2004
15213 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

impossible to enforce
Maybe impossible to eradicate, but very possible to enforce. The government does a poor job of enforcing the tax evasion laws, but that doesn't stop them from doing so. All it takes is one case, and a link will be found to others.

quote:

Oh, I'm sure that you'll never be able to pay your taxes in bitcoin, so if that's what you mean by legal tender, then yea, you're right. But to declare it worthless? Come on man, that's ridiculous. An items value is determined by supply and demand. If there is demand for bitcoins, then they will have value, regardless of what the US government says.
Making it worthless means you can't legally convert bitcoins into U.S. dollars. Yes, there will be a black market for doing so, but major financial institutions will not run the risk of alienating the U.S. government. Just ask Swiss bankers about the sanctity of their privacy rules and messing with the U.S. desire for information about its citizens.






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LSURussian
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
80689 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Maybe in the future.
My question was not hypothetical based on something that might happen in the future. I'm asking about NOW. Until it does, there are no transaction costs to the buyer on the internet who uses a credit card.

If it happens in the future, get back to me and let me know.

quote:

Have you never gotten a cash discount at a local retailer?
Sure, so why do I need bitcoin? I can use cash and get a discount now.

quote:

But you can be (sic) that you will get stuff cheaper on ebay for bitcoins.


Again, let me know when it happens. Then I might be interested.






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C
LSU Fan
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Dec 2007
21471 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

think of bitcoins right now as the internet was in 1993.


we'll see. I don't think you'll see the same rapid adoption and use unless a govt adopts it as legal tender.






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LSURussian
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
80689 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

if a vendor can pass on those savings to make their business more competitive, they will.
Of course they will. I'm all for them doing just that.

My question remains: are they doing it now with bitcoin?






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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

Making it worthless means you can't legally convert bitcoins into U.S. dollars.

yeah, but the way it works would be that small vendors could set up shop and do this.

They already have this, where individuals in your communities will convert bitcoins to cash and vice/versa.

Wiki - I think that alternative currencies are closer to file trading than the internet in terms of maturity cycle.

Paypal is napster
Bitcoins are torrents






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C
LSU Fan
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Dec 2007
21471 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:


if a vendor can pass on those savings to make their business more competitive, they will.


You have to remember large vendors like credit cards and other electronic transfers because it eliminates cash. Cash is easily stolen and is difficult to have accurate accounting for. Credit card use basically eliminates risk for the business and, likewise, for the consumer.






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el duderino III
Texas Fan
austin
Member since Jul 2011
1517 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


he cant answer the question on transaction costs because he is apparently unable to distinguish between talking points he hears on message boards about how amazing bitcoin is and individual economic realities. for example:

-due of the technology of bitcoin, transaction costs for purchases made using bitcoin are substantially cheaper!

-did you hear that guys? if you want to eliminate transaction costs, start using bitcoin!

in reality, reduced transaction costs would only result in an equivalently reduced price if the entire economy unilaterally adopted bitcoin, or if the specific merchant had the vast majority of his sales paid for only by bitcoin. no one is better off adopting bitcoin on the individual level because it would be reflected in the price they pay. but that doesn't sound as compelling as, "It's because of the technology, everything is better with it, always."






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el duderino III
Texas Fan
austin
Member since Jul 2011
1517 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

My question remains: are they doing it now with bitcoin?
well apparently, since for people who are already using bitcoin, competitive advantage relative to other currencies is not actually a criterion for their usage, I see no incentive for them to do so. It's the novelty effect, greshams law, in a sense






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LSURussian
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
80689 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


I still don't see where the security exists to prevent some very bright computer people from highjacking the bitcoin concept and flooding the market with, in effect, 'counterfeit' bitcoins.

I worked with too many underemployed Russian rocket scientists, literally, who eventually gave up their day job to concentrate on internet hacking and fraud. Why do you think so many hacking operations come out of Russia or other former Soviet Union republics? They have a supply of computer geniuses and a culture of anything goes....no morals, no ethics, no sense of honesty along with a law enforcement community that is easily and cheaply bought off.

Those guys are effin' geniuses who went from being super elite, relatively wealthy in their countries to living in near poverty by becoming clerks in banks, or worse.

There is no code or security system they can't break given enough time and monetary incentive.

All it would take is for one of them to break into the bitcoin vault (or wallets) and either steal what's there or inject an enormous amount of counterfeit bitcoins and disperse those coins among hundreds or thousands of zombie PC's around the world that they would use to buy goods, both legal and illegal, for their benefit unbeknownst to the individual PC users.

One day honest bitcoin users (Is that an oxymoron?) would realize their supposedly "limited" number of bitcoins in circulation has been exponentially increased without any way of determining whose bitcoins are from the original limited supply and whose are the counterfeit coins put into circulation by some super geeks in Russia, Ukraine or China.

So they thought they had bitcoins worth several thousand dollars which have been inflated to fractions of pennies.

And another great, well intentioned technological idea bites the dust with a lot of people left holding an empty bag, or wallet, as the case may be.






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el duderino III
Texas Fan
austin
Member since Jul 2011
1517 posts

re: Iranian's discover bitcoin


quote:

yeah, but the way it works would be that small vendors could set up shop and do this.
and how would they be compensated for the increased operational costs relative to their volume exchanged as compared to the consolidate exchange? and how would they be compensated for the risk they are taking, by breaking the law to do so?

---> by raising the fee required for each exchange. in one step, you have already erased whatever economic gain you thought you had from using it.

ETA like i said before, i think the exchanges are a much greater weakness to the independence of such a system than the security of the technology. these exchanges have to be tied to brick and mortor banks, subject to regulation. you're engaging in financial transactions - it's completely apples and oranges to comparing it to trying to shut down P2P file sharing sites. laws regarding piracy websites =/= laws regarding websites engaging in commerce



This post was edited on 11/30 at 12:56 pm


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