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re: What router should I buy?

Posted on 8/4/14 at 2:33 pm to
Posted by ILikeLSUToo
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2008
18018 posts
Posted on 8/4/14 at 2:33 pm to


Q: What's a good budget laptop for basic browsing and Word?
A: MacBook

Q: Need wireless internet for [short list of clients with N adapters] in a 1600 sq ft house.
A: AC router, powerline adapter, MoCA, Wifi repeaters

Q: What phone should I get?
A: The one I just bought.

Q: I need a desktop PC with Windows for basic home use. I'm not very computer-savvy. Do I need an i7?
A: Build it yourself.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51809 posts
Posted on 8/4/14 at 6:11 pm to
quote:

budget

quote:

Mac


Posted by Hu_Flung_Pu
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2013
22211 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 9:31 am to
DO NOT get that piece of shite gateway from Cox.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:34 pm to
Router/Modem/Client Knowledge Drop

Here's a detailed look at how to determine what you need. Your wireless user experience will be affected by 4 main factors (ISP, Modem, Router, Client Device). Each one of these will have limitations that can affect your bandwidth and ultimately your throughput.

ISP - Cox, Verizon, AT&T, etc. sets limits for download/upload bandwith. For example, in Baton Rouge Cox's Preferred Internet Package is capped at 25 Mbps download and 5 Mbps upload. Regardless of your modem, router, and client device, you will never surpass the limits set by your ISP. So, even though my Moto X supports 802.11a/b/g/n/ac, it will never get past 25 Mbps download speeds when connected to Cox internet.

Modem - Your modem will also have limits set for download and upload. This will be based on the DOCSIS and the number of downstream/upstream channels. In America, DOCSIS throughput is limited to 42.88 Mbps downstream. DOCSIS 2.0 saw an increase in upstream from 10.24 to 30.72 Mbps. DOCSIS 3.0 introduced multiple channel bonding to improve throughput both downstream and upstream. For example, the Motorola Surfboard SB6141 is DOCSIS 3.0 with 8 channels for downstream and 4 for upstream. This provides an increase up to 343.04 downstream and 122.88 upstream Mbps. But again, my modem will not reach these speeds because the ISP is limiting them to 25 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up.

Router - Your wireless router will have capabilities to work over multiple wireless standards. 802.11a/b/g/n/ac are multiple standards that you've probably seen. In addition to increasing throughput, the range has improved from a->b->g->n, etc. 802.11ac also improves by doubling the number of streams from 4 to 8. Your router will allow 2 different types of data transfers:

1. From the Internet to your Client (Internet - > ISP -> Modem -> Router -> Tablet). The throughput from your client to the internet will be limited by your ISP, Modem, Router, and Client.

2. From one Client to another Client when both are attached to the same router. The throughput from your client to the other client will be limited by Client #1, Router, and Client #2.

This distinction will be important in picking a router.

Client - Your device (Computer, tablet, phone, etc.) most likely has at least 802.11n capabilities. If you've bought a device this year it might have 802.11ac.

*****TLDR*****

If you are moving data from one client to another client wirelessly, having the fastest router that your client devices support can help with throughput. For instance, if you are copying from a new Macbook Air with 802.11ac to your Galaxy S5 with 802.11ac through your WIFI, having a router with 802.11ac will increase your speeds.

But, you will never approach anywhere close to 802.11ac speeds from the internet for 2 reasons:
1. Your ISP is limiting your throughput to 25 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up with the above plan from Cox.
2. Your modem (the SB6141) is limited to a max of 343.04 downstream and 122.88 upstream Mbps.

Unless you wirelessly send throughput from client to client, don't worry about getting a crazy ac router because you will likely not see a benefit from it at all.
Posted by GrammarKnotsi
Member since Feb 2013
9382 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:39 pm to
quote:

But, you will never approach anywhere close to 802.11ac speeds from the internet for 2 reasons:
1. Your ISP is limiting your throughput to 25 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up with the above plan from Cox.


You're going to confuse the shite out of people with this
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:45 pm to
People are recommending 1200-1900 Mbps capable routers to someone that won't approach 500Mbps from their ISP for 5 years. And if the ISP did, the DOCSIS 3.0 modem they have wont support it.

They are the ones confusing people.
This post was edited on 8/5/14 at 2:47 pm
Posted by GrammarKnotsi
Member since Feb 2013
9382 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:47 pm to
quote:

People are recommending 1200-1900 Mbps capable routers to someone that won't approach 500Mbps from their ISP for 5 years. They are the ones confusing people.



It comes in handy to have that speed for Chromecast, Roku, etc...I have a gigabit switch and 25Mbps internet....I don't expect the internet to be Gig, I just expect the transfer of that 25 to get to me quickly
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:50 pm to
Chromecast only supports Wireless N.
Posted by GrammarKnotsi
Member since Feb 2013
9382 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

Chromecast only supports Wireless N.



I can't tell if you don't understand, or if you are as bad at describing things to people as I am...

Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 2:59 pm to
Probably both. Explain to me how a Chromecast will work better on an AC1700 router than a N900 router?
Posted by GrammarKnotsi
Member since Feb 2013
9382 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 3:02 pm to
quote:

Explain to me how a Chromecast will work better on an AC1700 router than a N900 router?


If I send something from my PC to my XBox..For example...I want it to get there as quickly as possible....A faster wireless router will make that happen...If I want to stream to my Chromecast, the same would hold true..I want it to get there as fast as possible..I understand that while I am transferring at 300, I am only going to get 25 from my internet..
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 3:09 pm to
The Chromecast will only use wireless n, even with an AC1700 router. So, you will only get 900 Mbps to your chromecast, regardless of whether you use an AC1700 router or N900. You are limited by the physical hardware inside the Chromecast. It won't get there any faster.
Posted by GrammarKnotsi
Member since Feb 2013
9382 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 4:08 pm to
quote:

you will only get 900 Mbps to your chromecast


I understand this..Your previous argument though makes it sound like you're only going to get 25 from Cox, so why not just have B/G
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 4:36 pm to
I did say that client to client can benefit from a better router. I guess my explanation was bad. Still, ac is overkill unless you are doing a lot of HD streaming from a lot of devices simultaneously. You can do full 1080p, 3D, with Dolby surround streaming with less than 20 Mbps.

Plus, most people that stream via Plex or something like that would benefit from hardwiring their devices anyway. 99% of people who ask for a router recommendation on this board would see no appreciatible difference from a N600 to a AC1900 router.

There are some exceptions, but most will never even use the N600 to full capabilities.
This post was edited on 8/5/14 at 4:37 pm
Posted by ILikeLSUToo
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2008
18018 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 5:01 pm to
quote:

So, you will only get 900 Mbps to your chromecast,


So much nope here. First of all, N900 means 450mbps PER BAND (5ghz and 2.4ghz), so it's 450mbps MAX on a single device. Secondly, that 450mbps can only be achieved with the appropriate number of spatial streams. Wireless N standard dictates ~150mbps per spatial stream. Most standard 802.11N adapters in laptops will have 2 antennae (2 spatial streams) allowing theoretical throughput of 300mbps on a single band, even on N900 routers, AC routers, etc. Some better equipped laptops will have 3, allowing 450.

Cell phones allow one spatial stream. That's 150mbps with an 802.11N adapter.

Chromecast? Also one spatial stream.


I am going to write a router guide.
This post was edited on 8/5/14 at 5:11 pm
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
27547 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 5:32 pm to
quote:

I am going to write a router guide
please do. I would enjoy that. I knew about the streams and I guess I forgot when thinking of a particular device like the Chromecast. My point is still valid that most routers sold today are overkill.
Posted by ILikeLSUToo
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2008
18018 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 5:47 pm to
quote:

most routers sold today are overkill.



This I agree with 100%
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
15004 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 6:01 pm to
quote:

I am going to write a router guide.


Those are dangerous words if you mean them.

It will be greatly appreciated.
Posted by ILikeLSUToo
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2008
18018 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 6:21 pm to
My mind's kind of fried from the day, but yeah, I think I can get something written in the next few weeks or so (which is what I said about the PC guide, but it ended up being a several-month endeavor and 10 times longer than I intended).

What are some of the basic topics I should cover?

2.4ghz/5ghz and the pros, cons, and capabilities of each
IEEE 802.11 standards
MIMO/Spatial streaming
Client adapter specs explained
Basic features other than wifi (10/100/1000 ports, USB ports)
Selection guide based on general criteria (network usage, type/number of clients, size of house)

What else?

I don't want to get into the weeds on it though. Mainly just want something to offer as an alternative to the mindless "get an AC router" comments.
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
15004 posts
Posted on 8/5/14 at 7:12 pm to
quote:

What else?



1) Basic QoS features would be a pretty good thing to touch on, particularly since the majority of the questions I seem to see pop up are "Is this good enough for streaming _____?" In reality, probably not the biggest deal and many seem to do some sort of automatic prioritization of network traffic, and those that would configure it probably already know what to look for in it.

2) Guest networking presence (since you're touching on USB/NAS features, it would be nice to know that Christian Grey doesn't have to make available all the pictures on his home network to his guests)

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