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re: Why do most conservatives embrace a lack of evidence re: climate change but not religion?
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:28 am to Homesick Tiger
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:28 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:
Just wondering with a hypothetical question for you. If your six year-old daughter, who had never been to church, came up to you and ask you to take her to church this Sunday, what would you say to her?
I'd take her to church, and afterwards ask what she learned/was hoping to see by going.
I grew up going to church, and still go with my family from time to time (holidays and such). I have no inherent problems with church.
0
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:34 am to Zach
quote:
Hmmm...interesting. My father had a vision on his death bed. He said 'Look, it's John. Right at the foot of the bed. He's come for me.'
Then he died.
I told my brother about his last words and asked "BTW, who the hell is John."
Bro: "That is the real name of his brother. our Uncle Jackie. He died 20 years ago."
In my experience with patients at or near the end, this is pretty normal. Hallucinations involving family/friends who have already died "appear" pretty regularly. Some patients describe very coherent and specific conversations they supposedly had with their dead parent or sibling, sometimes thinking they are still alive and sometimes recognizing that the person is dead.
There is absolutely no reason to ascribe anything supernatural to any of it.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:40 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Whoever wrote that is so ignorant that their entire argument can safely be dismissed. It would literally be impossible for a human author to have no worldly influence. That's the entire point of using human authors--they speak the language of their societies.
If God allows flawed human perception into his official holy book of record, I question that God's foresight.
quote:
Mithraism was founded in 80 AD. Approximately five decades after Christianity.
And? Some of christianity's current doctrines didnt arise until over a thousand years after Christ. Moreover, the time origin of either makes no statement regarding shared practice.
quote:
The "Jesus=Horus/Mithra/etc" trash has been thoroughly debunked several times on this board.
Agreed, for the most part. Ive defended christianity against such accusations in the past here.
There is no denying however that much of the imagery and practices, especially in the catholic church, are pulled straight from the Roman pagan practices of the first and second centuries. And a huge portion of the OT was written after the Babylonian exile, where the Hebrews borrowed extensively from Babylonian legends. The great flood is literally ripped straight out of Babylon.
This post was edited on 11/23/14 at 9:43 am
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:44 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:There is absolutely no contradicting proof against ascribing anything supernatural to any of it either.
There is absolutely no reason to ascribe anything supernatural to any of it.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:45 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
There is absolutely no reason to ascribe anything supernatural to any of it.
No one knows if there is an afterlife. But I am reminded of Socrates' speech upon being condemned to death:
"There is either life after death... or there is not. If there is not then death is like a dreamless sleep and not to be feared. If there is life after death there may be Heaven and Hell. If there is Heaven it will be wonderful to spend eternity discussing different topics with the great minds of antiquity. If there is a Hell you gentlemen of the jury will be going there for condemning an innocent man."
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:51 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
There is absolutely no contradicting proof against ascribing anything supernatural to any of it either.
The same can be said of literally anything. The burden of proof is on the person making the definitive claim. Until someone can provide evidence of a supernatural cause, I see no reason to believe just because it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:52 am to Zach
quote:
"There is either life after death... or there is not. If there is not then death is like a dreamless sleep and not to be feared. If there is life after death there may be Heaven and Hell. If there is Heaven it will be wonderful to spend eternity discussing different topics with the great minds of antiquity. If there is a Hell you gentlemen of the jury will be going there for condemning an innocent man."
Probably the best thought on the afterlife Ive ever read.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 9:57 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
There is absolutely no reason to ascribe anything supernatural to any of it.
quote:Correct!
The burden of proof is on the person making the definitive claim.
That is the point.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:06 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Until someone can provide evidence of a supernatural cause, I see no reason to believe just because it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy
The very idea of *supernatural* implies that a particular observed phenomena could be outside or contradictory to Universal Law. Which (IMO) would be utterly impossible. Nothing...can be 'outside', as all things perceived are innate to the Whole. It is more a matter of "provide evidence"; I.e., understanding that particular interactive dynamic in a way that we can communicate it. And since abstract ideas are subjectively perceived...understanding/evidence, all comes down to the "eyes that see and ears that hear" thing.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:08 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Correct!
That is the point.
I said there is no reason to believe it. That is not a definitive claim, I'm not saying they CANT be supernatural but merely that I have no reason to think they are at present.
The burden of proof is on those who say they ARE supernatural in origin.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:10 am to Lsupimp
quote:i just posted plots that show that at least the ocean surface layers are still warming. Why do you react so strongly against facts?
Rage On,brave Climate Man Crusader.
Your strict adherence to your Fundamentalist Doctrine earns a solid "attaboy".
This post was edited on 11/23/14 at 10:11 am
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:11 am to RCDfan1950
quote:As we currently understand it. String theory dimensionality might turn some of that on its head, as might future shift capability within space-time.
The very idea of *supernatural* implies that a particular observed phenomena could be outside or contradictory to Universal Law.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:12 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
The very idea of *supernatural* implies that a particular observed phenomena could be outside or contradictory to Universal Law.
That's the point
Thus a creator who wished us to recognize him or his manifestations (such as NDE) would either have to give us an objective means of realizing what was occurring, or make the entire system subjectively faith based. The former is obviously not reality, and the latter leaves the most important thing in a person's life up to largely chance.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:18 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:No.
The burden of proof is on those who say they ARE supernatural in origin
The BOP resides with someone claiming definitive cause.
You have your suspicions and apparently are quite satisfied with them. That's fine. Just be careful to accurately represent them as such
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:57 am to NC_Tigah
quote:what does that mean?
might future shift capability within space-time.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 10:57 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Thus a creator who wished us to recognize him or his manifestations (such as NDE) would either have to give us an objective means of realizing what was occurring, or make the entire system subjectively faith based. The former is obviously not reality, and the latter leaves the most important thing in a person's life up to largely chance.
To expand upon this point: Jesus said that "his kingdom is not of this world". Both Love and Beauty are Spiritual concepts; "subjectively faith-based". For some, they color life wonderfully beyond their fondest expectations. For others, these ideas - and the power therein - simply do not exist in an objective/empirical sense. Like the Biblical analogy of the wind...witnessed only in the affect it has on other things.
"Largely chance". Not for this Reality surfer. At a particular point in my life...I WILLFULLY CHOSE to validate the idea of God, Love and Beauty, and singulary - above all other values - seek to strengthen these ideas with the force of my will. And of course, with the (objectively)subtle power of Christ's mercy, and any *supernatural*
influence such may have on the Universal Law in regard to my belief, action...and the Universal reaction therein. But I know what you imply, RK. Surely it is 'chance', looking forward; as the action/reaction dynamics are virtually incalculable, and existentially/relatively uncontrollable. Again...the Good Book: "sewn in corruption...raised incorruptible".
Once we rise to a level of real comprehension, I.e., the acquisition of Knowledge...Knowledge is Power. Power to control. Even, and most likely, the most core aspect of our existence.
The ball is truly in our court. We are not slaves; only as much as we remain ignorant. We are heirs. To a gift beyond our greatest dreams. Today's dreams...are tomorrow's reality.
More crazy stuff.
Thank you Jesus.
Gotta go build the inside shower; for the wife mostly. Been showering on the back deck for 35 years; time to move it in, since Global cooling is on the prowl.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 11:16 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
If God allows flawed human perception into his official holy book of record, I question that God's foresight.
That doesn't make sense. A divinely inspired author living in present-day Louisiana would make references to SEC football, crawfish boils, offshore drilling, hurricanes, or rice and sugar farming. That's not a matter of flawed human perception. It's a matter of delivering a message in terms your audience understands. That's the very definition of foresight.
With no cultural influence, that same author would make references cricket, snowmobiles, mountain climbing, and yak's milk. Which would be just as valid but the intended audience would be confused.
quote:
And? Some of christianity's current doctrines didnt arise until over a thousand years after Christ. Moreover, the time origin of either makes no statement regarding shared practice
It completely undermines the claim that Christianity was copied from Mithraism. The one that existed first was the original. Christianity was significant enough by the 60s that Caligula and Nero thought it was worth persecuting--and at that point, they had to be able to distinguish it from Judaism and from other, now-forgotten messianic movements. It just so happened that the central authorities looked at it and said "hey, this is good stuff, let's use some of it."
quote:
There is no denying however that much of the imagery and practices, especially in the catholic church, are pulled straight from the Roman pagan practices of the first and second centuries
There's a much more direct link to Judaism. The Eucharist is the central feature of Mass and it comes from the Last Supper, which was a Seder meal.
quote:
And a huge portion of the OT was written after the Babylonian exile, where the Hebrews borrowed extensively from Babylonian legends.
It wasn't written after the exile. Older writings were collected in one place and canonized after the exile. Kings and Chronicles were obviously written after the return from exile, but those are condensed versions of historical records that were extant at the time. The authors simply highlighted the most important points of each reign and placed them in a theological context--and each passage ends with "the rest of the acts of _____ are written in..." or similar wording. Further, a lot of the kings are mentioned in the records of neighboring civilizations. Hazael is an example--he backed Jehu's coup against the house of Omri and (as he often did) pumped up his contribution to the result.
As far as flood myths, those are almost universal and there's a good reason for that. Sea level is a LOT higher than it was during the last ice age. Which, to get back to the OP's question, proves there must have been even more SUVs 10,000 years ago than there are today, because there was a catastrophic, widespread flood as a result.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 11:24 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
And of course, with the (objectively)subtle power of Christ's mercy
This is really the crux of the argument. I spent 20 years as a practicing Christian and never had a single objective experience regarding God, Jesus or anything else associated with Christianity. I spent the last several years specifically asking for something of the sort to aid my belief which continued to wane the more I studied and sought answers.
In hindsight, everything I was experiencing was a subjective emotional experience which can be generated by almost anything.
quote:
Gotta go build the inside shower; for the wife mostly. Been showering on the back deck for 35 years; time to move it in, since Global cooling is on the prowl
Good luck
Posted on 11/23/14 at 11:25 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
there must have been even more SUVs 10,000 years ago than there are today, because there was a catastrophic, widespread flood as a result.
Posted on 11/23/14 at 11:48 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
That doesn't make sense
To you, and only because to accept it would invalidate claims of Biblical authority.
quote:
That's the very definition of foresight.
The foresight to have the most important event in human history be witnessed by a few thousand largely illiterate and superstitious people in first century Judea?
To believe that shows foresight by an omnipotent deity reveals a complete disregard for intellectual honesty. On no other matter would you consider something like that to be anything deity requires a complete disregard for more than nonsense. You simply do not judge your faith using the same standard you use for everything else.
quote:
Christianity was significant enough by the 60s that Caligula and Nero thought it was worth persecuting
Largely a myth, Christian persecution is significantly overstated by Christian historians. There are multiple Roman accounts of Christians coming to them ASKING to be martyred and being turned away. Outside of a very short and specific periods, the Romans largely ignored Christianity.
quote:
There's a much more direct link to Judaism. The Eucharist is the central feature of Mass and it comes from the Last Supper, which was a Seder meal.
The robes priests wear is very similar to what pagan priests wore. The monstrance is nearly identical to their idols for sun worship. The sequence of the latin mass was used specifically to entice pagans to join because it was essentially their worship format. The original monuments to Mary were converted pagan goddess statues taken from sacked temples. And so on and so forth.
quote:
It wasn't written after the exile. Older writings were collected in one place and canonized after the exile. Kings and Chronicles were obviously written after the return from exile, but those are condensed versions of historical records that were extant at the time. The authors simply highlighted the most important points of each reign and placed them in a theological context--and each passage ends with "the rest of the acts of _____ are written in..." or similar wording. Further, a lot of the kings are mentioned in the records of neighboring civilizations. Hazael is an example--he backed Jehu's coup against the house of Omri and (as he often did) pumped up his contribution to the result.
This is simply an incorrect history of past events, nothing more. From the earliest books the Bible, there is a mish mash of mono and polytheism and it only became strictly monotheistic around 400-500 BC.
quote:
As far as flood myths, those are almost universal and there's a good reason for that.
Yeah, all old world civilizations arose next to bodies of water, many of which are known for their devastating periodic floods (The Tigris and Euphrates, the Nile, the Yellow River, etc.)
quote:
Which, to get back to the OP's question, proves there must have been even more SUVs 10,000 years ago than there are today, because there was a catastrophic, widespread flood as a result.
I laughed
This post was edited on 11/23/14 at 11:52 am
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