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re: The Left's new attack on the death penalty: 8 in 11 days is traumatic for executioners
Posted on 4/12/17 at 11:49 am to troyt37
Posted on 4/12/17 at 11:49 am to troyt37
quote:
I agree. Completely different subject than executing murderers for heinous crimes committed though, isn't it?
Nope. It's still a cold-blooded killing a human being that's not threatening you. It can't be easy for normal people.
It's a separate question from whether the death penalty is right or wrong.
1
Posted on 4/12/17 at 11:52 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
I have a better argument against the death penalty.
Why do people think an imperfect trial system will only convict and execute guilty people?
Do they think the court system is perfect? Or are they ok with killing the occasional innocent person?
You won't get an answer to this. The fact that the system is imperfect won't sway anyone here from this course.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 11:57 am to troyt37
quote:
God forgives, not the state
So don't try to be god like?
Just be the state.
Got it.
quote:
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.
I'm pretty sure this meant pay your taxes.
If you really believe that Jesus would be cool with executing a born again Christian when he personally stopped the stoning of someone who wasn't, you are probably cherry-picking verses.
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 11:59 am
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:02 pm to Homesick Tiger
quote:
If you don't have the fortitude then quit your job but don't give me excuses on why you can't/won't do the job you were hired for.
This is pretty much all that needs to be said.
/thread.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:06 pm to skrayper
quote:
You won't get an answer to this. The fact that the system is imperfect won't sway anyone here from this course.
Which leads me to think that people know innocent people are executed, but don't want to do the mental gymnastics to justify it.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:07 pm to uway
quote:
It's still a cold-blooded killing a human being that's not threatening you.
Nope. It's the execution of a murderer, according to the will of the people in the society in which the murderer lived. Nothing cold-blooded about it. The murderer essentially asked for the punishment they receive, by committing the crime.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:17 pm to LSUcjb318
quote:
So don't try to be god like? Just be the state. Got it.
There are undoubtedly executed murderers in heaven. That doesn't mean God wasn't ok with their execution.
quote:
I'm pretty sure this meant pay your taxes.
And many other things.
quote:
If you really believe that Jesus would be cool with executing a born again Christian when he personally stopped the stoning of someone who wasn't, you are probably cherry-picking verses.
If you really believe that God was against capital punishment, you definitely are.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:22 pm to skrayper
quote:
The death penalty is a bad idea, but not for those reasons. It's a bad idea because courts can, and do, get crap wrong. Over 2000 exonerations Prosecutors and investigators have been known to fight for convictions above justice. The death penalty is a prison sentence that cannot be corrected.
I agree. When I was younger I got caught up in a criminal investigation. I was totally innocent and tried to help the cops and the feds as much as possible and they still tried to frick me over. I was lucky I had a really good lawyer in the family. If you think only guilty people are sitting in prison or death row you are in la la land.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:36 pm to troyt37
quote:
If you really believe that Jesus would be cool with executing a born again Christian when he personally stopped the stoning of someone who wasn't, you are probably cherry-picking verses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you really believe that God was against capital punishment, you definitely are.
I'm pretty sure Jesus was god in the human form, so why would he stop an Old Testament sanctioned execution in progress?
This post was edited on 4/13/17 at 7:46 am
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:54 pm to LSUcjb318
quote:
I'm pretty sure Jesus was god in the human form, so why we he stop an Old Testament sanctioned execution in progress?
Well, there you have it. He is the boss. If Jesus stops any of these executions in Arkansas, it will be perfectly fine with me.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 12:58 pm to skrayper
quote:The only consistent answer is from a Christian worldview.
You won't get an answer to this. The fact that the system is imperfect won't sway anyone here from this course
The atheist has no universal standard for morality and thus there is no real "right" or "wrong" to judge by (justice is an application of morality to some degree). Therefore, there is no basis in atheism to say that it is "wrong" to "wrongfully" execute someone based on imperfect knowledge or corruption in a case. To say it is wrong is to make a subjective assessment based on an individual standard of morality that is no better or worse than any other standard, and can't be, because there is no universal law to guide us.
In the Christian worldview, we recognize that mankind is not omniscient and must use laws of logic and reason, imperfectly applied to law/morality in order to make best judgments, given the belief that God will judge rightly in the afterlife regardless of how we judge here on earth. Therefore, capital punishment is a just use of law and punishment by the civil magistrate in the Christian worldview, though the weight of such a responsibility should be felt and every means available used to ensure right judgement is being made.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 1:08 pm to LSUcjb318
quote:Lest you forget, Jesus was the innocent victim in a capital punishment case, and he was "cool" with it because it was necessary for him to be the savior of mankind.
If you really believe that Jesus would be cool with executing a born again Christian when he personally stopped the stoning of someone who wasn't, you are probably cherry-picking verses.
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 4/12/17 at 1:09 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The atheist has no universal standard for morality and thus there is no real "right" or "wrong" to judge by (justice is an application of morality to some degree). Therefore, there is no basis in atheism to say that it is "wrong" to "wrongfully" execute someone based on imperfect knowledge or corruption in a case. To say it is wrong is to make a subjective assessment based on an individual standard of morality that is no better or worse than any other standard, and can't be, because there is no universal law to guide us.
This is an absurdist view of atheism. Atheists don't go around telling people it's okay to rape and murder people - they don't use holy books or a divine power to tell them what is good vs what is evil. They know murder is bad because MURDER IS BAD.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 1:15 pm to skrayper
quote:My point is that atheists have to borrow from a Christian worldview to say something is wrong or bad, otherwise they are being inconsistent with their own worldview which does not allow for a universal moral law. Morality has to be subjective by that worldview, and the only reason we have a sense of objectivity to it (based on the atheistic worldview) is because people groups and cultures have agreed on certain moral standards by consensus. But, because it is agreed upon by consensus, any other moral standard can also be agreed upon by consensus (such as cannibalism, forced ritualistic sacrifice, rape, murder of the weak and infirm, etc.) and be equally "right".
This is an absurdist view of atheism. Atheists don't go around telling people it's okay to rape and murder people - they don't use holy books or a divine power to tell them what is good vs what is evil. They know murder is bad because MURDER IS BAD.
I believe that all people inherently know "right" from "wrong" because of God's law being written on the hearts of man (this is the conscience). There is no universal moral code in an atheistic worldview. To have one is to borrow one from another worldview.
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:24 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
My point is that atheists have to borrow from a Christian worldview to say something is wrong or bad, otherwise they are being inconsistent with their own worldview which does not allow for a universal moral law. Morality has to be subjective by that worldview, and the only reason we have a sense of objectivity to it (based on the atheistic worldview) is because people groups and cultures have agreed on certain moral standards by consensus. But, because it is agreed upon by consensus, any other moral standard can also be agreed upon by consensus (such as cannibalism, forced ritualistic sacrifice, rape, murder of the weak and infirm, etc.) and be equally "right".
I believe that all people inherently know "right" from "wrong" because of God's law being written on the hearts of man (this is the conscience). There is no universal moral code in an atheistic worldview. To have one is to borrow one from another worldview.
Every culture and religion "borrows" from one another to some extent. We are all human after all. Right and wrong and ubiquitous laws against murder and theft exist because early on our ancestors realized civilized society could not exist with out them. I would suggest reading "Cows Pigs Wars and Witches" by Marvin Harris as an introduction to cultural anthropology. You might find it interesting.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:41 pm to troyt37
quote:
Well, there you have it. He is the boss. If Jesus stops any of these executions in Arkansas, it will be perfectly fine with me
So by that logic, innocent people die because Jesus wanted it?
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:44 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Lest you forget, Jesus was the innocent victim in a capital punishment case, and he was "cool" with it because it was necessary for him to be the savior of mankind.
So god sent himself to receive capital punishment and then begged himself not to let it happen then accepted it.
So killing innocent people is ok and god-like? Got it!
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:51 pm to FalseProphet
I was always opposed to the electric chair. I preferred an electric sofa...zap three at a time as opposed to just one.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 4:05 pm to LSUcjb318
quote:
So by that logic, innocent people die because Jesus wanted it?
Nailed it.
Come to think of it, I bet there are bank robbers doing hard time that are innocent. I think we should just do away with prison time for bank robbery. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 4:10 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:The argument you are proposing is that morality is strictly utilitarian and that it exists because society deems it useful. The problem with that view of morality is that it is completely subjective and prone to change as the societal winds change. Not only that, what one society considers useful may not be considered useful to another, so there isn't one, single standard to use to judge the behaviors of others.
Every culture and religion "borrows" from one another to some extent. We are all human after all. Right and wrong and ubiquitous laws against murder and theft exist because early on our ancestors realized civilized society could not exist with out them. I would suggest reading "Cows Pigs Wars and Witches" by Marvin Harris as an introduction to cultural anthropology. You might find it interesting.
Since there is no objective basis for judging right and wrong other than what a given society agrees to on any given day, there isn't anything (even murder) that is objectively immoral. Just because most people throughout time have thought murder was evil doesn't mean it is objectively evil. Homosexuality hasn't been accepted anywhere in the West for almost 2,000 years and then all of the sudden it's fine. It used to be acceptable to feed Christians to the lions for preaching against other gods and the emperor, so maybe that will come back into fashion soon.
Who are we to impose our own moral standards on those who don't accept them? We see Sharia as barbaric, but it's a way of life in many Muslim societies. We see forced euthanasia as murder, but what if it's necessary to keep medical costs under control to help the majority of the people? Many view abortion as murder, but many others justify it as a necessary control on population growth and crime. In an atheistic worldview, not only is there no objective basis for judging other individuals within a society, there is certainly no objective basis for judging other societies. You could argue that it's cruel to imprison and even kill others who disagree with a subjective and rather arbitrary moral code just because the rest of society wants to.
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