re: Russia is our mortal enemy. Saudi Arabia is our trusted friend and ally.

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So, they were friendly 100 years ago. WE were pretty friendly with Iran until the 50s.

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Prior to the takeover by the Bolsheviks. Correct. Perhaps you didn't notice, but Russia is no longer a communist state and their international ambitions and behavior are likewise not the same. You asserted they were natural foes, yet you have provided no support for this. The pre-Bolshevik Russia posed NO threats to the United States.

And Iran is an irrelevant point. Yes, secular Iran likewise poses no fundamental threat to the United States. An Islamic fundamentalist takeover completely altered that relationship, similar to Bolshevism in Russia. The Iranians are likewise not natural enemies. Islamic fundamentalism and Bolshevism are. But let's also not pretend as though the United States was innocent in it's relationship with Iran.

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Russia is....
a) anti democratic
b) anti freedom
c) wants to challenge the US unipolar grip on the world
d) Challenge to NATO, which is a core part of our national security strategy

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And what was Russia prior to Bolshevism? Anti-democratic. Were they therefore a fundamental enemy of the US? What is Saudi Arabia, China, and any other number of states that we cooperate with and seek to maintain friendly relations with? Is the United States now viewing any state that doesn't reflect our own internal political values as a natural enemy? That's preposterous, arrogant, and naive to the highest degree.

And want to challenge US unipolar grip on the world? How dare they pursue their own interests in their region! The whole world should submit to US interests! And our interests stretch to every nook and cranny across the breadth of the globe!

And what challenge do the Russians pose to NATO exactly? Was it not NATO that continued to expand eastward and to the frontier of former Soviet states after the USSR's collapse? Is it not NATO who was founded to counter Communist expansion into Western Europe in a post-WWII world that saw the Soviet Union stretch all the way to Berlin and now continues to exist in spite of the disappearance of it's raison d'être? Yet now, like any other bureaucratic institution, it has morphed into an ever expanding international effort at limiting any Russian revival whatsoever. This only further guarantees conflict and hostility with any Russian government that seeks to better their national existence and it places the fault on a United States who views international politics as a zero sum game.

I disagree. We have no border with them, we don't compete with them on major industries/markets, and we both have concerns on China.

Why are they not a natural ally? Our strange desire to protect a collection of decaying micro-states?

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Romney stated that Russia was a geopolitical threat, and Obama mocked him saying the 1980s called and want their foreign policy back.

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Yep.

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the flip flopping hypocrisy on the left is mind numbing

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Wait, WHAT???



I'm seeing flip-flopping on the right just as much.

Only since Trump became the Republican nominee has the Right flip-flopped on Russia.

This thread is simply amazing. In the absolute middle of flip-flopping on SA and Russia, those on the right still want to point and laugh at "flip-flopping" on the left.

I guess if it weren't for Obama, Saudi Arabia would never have been considered our allies, right?



Thanks Obama!

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Only since Trump became the Republican nominee has the Right flip-flopped on Russia.

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You're forgetting when Bush II looked into Putin's soul and liked what he saw.

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We actually don't have friendly relations with these countries though. SA was largely behind 9/11. Our relationship with China is opportunistic.

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Yet we don't see anything resembling the rhetoric and hostile language towards either that we see pitted against the Russians. The Russians who, in reality, we likely share even greater common international interests with.

And our relations with SA and China have both been generally friendly. To say otherwise is simply untrue. The entire establishment lost their shite when Trump spoke with the leader of Taiwan in fear it might upset the Chinese. Yeah, not the same way we act in regards to the Russians at all. And don't even get me started on our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

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The US pushing democracy as a concept to embrace goes backs a long time. We have yet to abandon it. However, at times we do work with countries that do not share these values.

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The United States can advocate whatever values it wants. You are the one who asserted that non-democracy is a core indicator for why the Russians should be viewed as an adversary. And you are still yet to make the for why that is so.

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they are trying to block its expansion

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Gee, I wonder why? Why is NATO expanding again?

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We pretty much control NATO, and were perfectly happy to see it expanded.

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I'm well aware of what our role is and what our policies have been. I think it was pretty clear in my post that I view those policies as antiquated and unsound

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I get why it pisses off Russia. But NATO is our organization, Russia is anti-Nato. Why is so hard to see that they are not our friend on this.

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I would say opposing NATO is completely rational and justified policy for Russia. It's also a provocative gesture by the U.S. and others. If that is your idea of painting the Russians as dangerous or not amenable to sensible cooperation with the U.S. then I'd say that's a highly unconvincing argument. A differing foreign policy could see Americans and Russians as quite natural allies. But yes, a continuance of organized efforts at containing and blocking Russian revival by the U.S. and her international organizations will make that rather difficult. That's sort of the whole point here actually, that our current policies and attitudes are what hinder the relationship, not some intrinsic social, cultural, or geopolitical conflicts.

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You conveniently omit that I am fine with reanalyzing our relationship with SA and Russia, but right now, Russia is not our friend or ally. We have sanctions in place against them, and they are a geopolitical rival. This isn't really subject to debate. Well here it is but for the rest of reality, its not.

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Except I haven't suggested that we don't currently have an adversarial relationship. I didn't speak to what they are or are not to the U.S. at this very moment as a result of our current policies. That is a strawman. I am suggesting that your claims that we are not "natural allies" are unfounded and unsubstantiated. We are not current allies because of policies that are in effect. That has nothing to do with whether we could very well be with a different foreign policy attitude, which we are well on our way to having with this new administration. But you have already suggested that they are our natural adversaries because they aren't democratic and because they resist NATO expansion. This has nothing to do with the concept of potential commonalities and cooperation, it merely has to do with Russian opposition to policies directly targeting their resurgence and convenient moral grandstanding against states that don't reflect our desired internal political system, which of course we only apply arbitrarily depending on political expediency.

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You're forgetting when Bush II looked into Putin's soul and liked what he saw.

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I'm not forgetting that, I also remember what happened after that...

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If that is your idea of painting the Russians as dangerous or not amenable to sensible cooperation with the U.S. then I'd say that's a highly unconvincing argument.

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I am suggesting that your claims that we are not "natural allies" are unfounded and unsubstantiated.

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Who are our closest allies? UK, Canada, Japan, france, germany, Isreal, Mexico. hmmmmm, how do these countries differ from Russia?

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convenient moral grandstanding against states that don't reflect our desired internal political system, which of course we only apply arbitrarily depending on political expediency.

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Sure, we are friendly with countries that do not embrace these values. But we get something out of that relationship. FOr instance, we remain friendly with turkey despite their recent slide b.c they are next to iraq. We are friendly with China due to trade. We are in bed with SA, due to oil and being close to iraq, and an antagonism towards Iran.

What do we get out of a relationship with russia? How would we benefit? The best I can think of is that they are engaged in a full throttle war with islam, and maybe we could team up on that.

Vlad the Impaler verses Abdul the Wahhabist? I'll take Vlad

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We don't need them to be our "closest" allies. There is no reason the United States and Russia cannot have friendly relations that aren't constantly marred by hostile rhetoric, military posturing, and economic warfare. Neocons and promoters of U.S. global interventionism obviously will see it otherwise and they have dominated our foreign policy since the end of the Cold War, which is a major contributor to our current state of relations.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

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Doc Fenton

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I told you neocon fricksticks all year long that your kind's warmongering and incessant appetite for stupid and unnecessary regime change in the Republican Party will be coming to an end.

President Trump will help expedite that with a realistic and pragmatic diplomat in Secretary Tillerson.